10 Great Things About 10th Planet

I'm surprised the front headlock and the twister were positions, I was under the impression each were individual moves. Can someone more familiar with 10th Planet explain?<<

Maybe Im wrong but the front headlock and the truck - positions. The twister - finishing move.

Elliot - thanks for responding to those comments in an intelligent and rational way. While I don't agree with all your points its nice to be able to disagree in a civil manner. I think its cool that you have a fundamentals program which incorporates self defense and basics before you delve into the 10th Planet system. And from training with Eddie I think the major strength of his system are its cohesiveness and organization, something that is fundamentally lacking in many many schools.

It took Eddie YEARS to get good at it, so you have to imagine it'll take other people even longer to get good at it.

Eddie would always go as much no-gi as possible after purple belt or so in the academy - that's the stories I've heard from the guys who've been at the academy about Eddie.

I wouldn't say Eddie's system is the end all be all for BJJ - I think it's a great tool to add to your skills.

They do get defensive when people disagree with their "techniques" and/or counters. I find that part the most entertaining - read that 100% thread. I don't hate on their system or their self-promotion, but I will call them on BS if I see it. :)

btw, kuan, I still hate you for posting that clip of me vs. Mark Vives. ;)

another objection I've heard:

9. It teaches only the instructors "game" without giving you the fundamentals necessary to create your own "game".

where did Uniques' post go? I'll repost:

Unique makes a good point:

From: ¤Unique¤
Posted: 1 hour ago Member Since: 4/1/05
Posts: 1461 Ignore | Quote
I am not FatfBuddha but I noticed two things I would liek to debate:

A)"ven if this were the case (with respect to RubberGuard), is it any less valuable to be able to nullify an opponent of one's own size. BJJ, SW and MMA competition are today always in weight classes, where size will be relatively the same."

I have to say that yes it is less valuable. There are lot of positions and moves these days. Too many for a single person to master all so why not to perfect those moves and positions that work regardless of opponents physical attributes.

I am not a big fan of techniques that depend on opponents physical attributes.

B)"Size makes everything difficult. Like all BJJ, 10th Planet includes submissions that will work more easily against people one's own size, and less easily against a bigger, stronger opponent. Experience will teach you this, as with any other BJJ teaching, and it will be up to you, the individual to learn from that experience and choose the right tactics for the situation."

Again why not to spend time to perfect those moves and techniques that work agains all kind of people and not just some spesific type of opponent?

"Again why not to spend time to perfect those moves and techniques that work agains all kind of people and not just some spesific type of opponent?"

I think this is a very good point and the answer depends on what you're training for. If you're training bjj for a sport (whether its sport jj, submission grappling or MMA)where you know the opponent is going to be in your weight class, then there are many many more things you can "evolve" and "innovate" that are not in the traditional bjj curriculum. That is one reason why bjj has "evolved" because there are many trick moves, set ups and submissions you can do against someone who is your own weight. Some of these are very cool and very effective, even more effective than the traditional bjj some would argue, against someone your own weight and strength.

This is where the bjj (or gjj) traditionalists diverge. The traditionalists argue exactly what Unique did (quoting Unique): "...why not spend time to perfect those moves and technqiues that work against all kind of people and not just some specific type of opponent?" The traditionalists feel that gjj should only contain moves that are likely to work against the strongest, biggest and most aggressive (punches included) person possible because you never know who you are going to encounter in a street fight. They feel that training an endless progression of moves, although nifty against people in your same weight class, hurts your preparation for the possibly bigger, stronger people on the street.

This also goes into another misconception about how to you even compare the efficacy of systems. Sport BJJ and Self-defense BJJ appear to similar enough that comparing their efficacy seems to only involve pitting them against each other. The traditionalists would argue that sport jjers excell at the "tricks" that would get them in danger against a bigger opponent throwing punches on the street since that is all that they spend thier time on (and they also don't have to split their time learning the self defense moves).

The traditionalists would argue that a true test would not be the sport bjjer versus the traditionalist in the same weight class but both the traditionalist and the sport bjjer against the same much heavier, bigger opponent that is throwing punches.

Because it is a subtle argument, when traditionalists made the argument it often sounds like an excuse and sport bjjers understandably get angry.

I personally think the distinction has validity, and explains why individuals like Royce may have trouble against submission artists in his own weight class but can survive against giants, while those same submission artists would not do well against the "giants".

I suppose it all comes down to why you are training. To excell especially in a non-punching format where there are weight classes, the "more evolved" sport jj may be the best option. To defend yourself against a much larger, stronger, usually unskilled opponent on the street, traditional bjj is probably the best bet.

Open Mat BJJ - 2. The system does not have a comprehensive standing aspect whether that consists of a strategy to clinch, striking techniques, or throwing techniques, so cross training extensively would be mandatory for self defense, a real fight, or MMA.



Agreed, but when is cross training not necessary? Is that not like saying Muay Thai is ineffective because you have to learn what to do on the ground, too? To hear Eddie speak, he strongly suggests working your wrestling and striking if your interest is MMA. But that is not where he can help you most. If you're looking for someone to give your school a complete curriculum from A to Z, 10th Planet might not be the best choice. If you're looking for a system to compliment your existing program, or if you're an BJJ/MMA fighter looking for and edge over other BJJ/MMA competitors, maybe it is. 

 
Can you clarify your response here?



You asserted that 10th Planet BJJ was designed for MMA (point #8).  Since MMA commonly includes: clinch, striking techniques and throws I'm confused by the response you gave (quoted above).  Does 10th Planet include techniques dealing with strikes, clinch and throws?  Does 10th Planet spar with strikes, clinch and throws? 



I may have misunderstood......

"I think this is a very good point and the answer depends on what you're training for. If you're training bjj for a sport (whether its sport jj, submission grappling or MMA)where you know the opponent is going to be in your weight class, then there are many many more things you can "evolve" and "innovate" that are not in the traditional bjj curriculum. "

I do have to respectfully disagree with you FatBuddha.

Look at Marcello Garcia and his game. His moves and style work against everyone regardless of opponents physical attributes.

which is what I was after with this:

"Again why not to spend time to perfect those moves and techniques that work agains all kind of people and not just some spesific type of opponent?"

Damn I HATE the edit on this "new" forum. It sucks.

Anyway in my honest opinion "true" BJJ works in all kind of situations be it mundials, ADCC, MMA or self defense. Again I am using Marcellos style as example. Also it is important to look at what Marcello himself said about Kron Gracies style and moves. He said something about Kron being great because his style and techniques work both with the gi and no gi without Kron needing to change his technique accordingly.

10 Bad things about 10th planet:
1) ari bolden is associated with 10thplanet
2) ari bolden is associated with 10thplanet
3) ari bolden is associated with 10thplanet
4) ari bolden is associated with 10thplanet
..... etc.

Hey Unique:
Regardless of whether we agree about the Marcelo example (I personally think Marcelo is very attribute based - i.e. the speed that it takes to armdrag and take the back, etc.) would you agree in principle that some games are great for sport jj but very bad for the street/self-defense.

For example Telles turtle guard game where he would automatially sit to turtle (very successful for sport jj, would get you soccer kicked on the street) or the inverted spider guard/upside down guard game of a Pe de Pano, etc.

FatBuddha -

1. The system does not adequately deal with a much larger, stronger opponent in your guard in a real fight where the size difference makes rubber guard impossible and the butterfly guard and half guard exposes you to punches



10th planet's half-guard, butterfly guard, and rubber guard, all involve controlling the opponent on top through clinching, which reduces the chances of getting severely hurt with a punch. have you ever seen a boxer get ktfo while clinching his opponent?

FatBuddha -

2. The system does not have a comprehensive standing aspect whether that consists of a strategy to clinch, striking techniques, or throwing techniques, so cross training extensively would be mandatory for self defense, a real fight, or MMA.



what you see in eddie's books, dvds, seminars, are the unique techniques that he has to offer. the core of the 10th planet system deals with just the ground aspect.

FatBuddha -

3. The system is too "bottom dependent" in the sense that it emphasizes sliding or sitting to half guard or guard which develops bad habits for a real fight



if you want to learn how to prepare for a real fight, then start your sparring/rolling sessions standing up. most bjj academies (especially 10th planet) only have X amount of space for X amount of people to train. and that X amount of space is not big enough for everyone to start from standing position. so the solution is to start from the knees, which is retarded, so the better solution is to have one guy buttscoot and pull guard, while the other works on the pass.

btw, eddie does teach top game, he even wrote a book on it called, mastering the twister.

FatBuddha -

4. many of the submissions work against opponents in your weight clas but not against bigger, stronger opponents



the same applies to any submission taught by any other bjj instructor from any other bjj academy.

FatBuddha -

5. the system lacks the standing self-defense moves leaving the student vulnerable for non-sportive situations like a head lock or bear hug from behind



again, what you see in eddie's books, dvds, seminars, are the unique techniques that he has to offer. the core of the 10th planet system deals with just the ground aspect.

btw, the majority of bjj schools don't even teach the traditional (gjj) self-defense program.

FatBuddha -

6. the lack of a gi leaves the student vulnerable to an attacker using his clothes against him in a real fight (even the hockey shirt over the head, etc. which requires no skill) and leaves him unable to use his opponents clothes against him. In addition, it leaves the student unprepared to defend even the most basic gi based submissions



10th planet is a no-gi school, where eddie bravo teaches a no-gi bjj style geared towards mma and no-gi bjj/submission grappling.

FatBuddha -

7. The system is too offense based and lacking in emphasis on defense and escapes from poor positions



you obviously have not read or watched mastering the rubber guard. because eddie does demonstrate positional escapes.

again, what you see in eddie's books, dvds, seminars, are the unique techniques that he has to offer. the core of the 10th planet system deals with just the ground aspect.

btw, do you really think it would be necessary for eddie to release a book and/or dvd showing the basic escapes from side control, mount, etc.?

FatBuddha -

How do you feel about these criticisms?



uneducated

paw - 
Open Mat BJJ - 2. The system does not have a comprehensive standing aspect whether that consists of a strategy to clinch, striking techniques, or throwing techniques, so cross training extensively would be mandatory for self defense, a real fight, or MMA.

Agreed, but when is cross training not necessary? Is that not like saying Muay Thai is ineffective because you have to learn what to do on the ground, too? To hear Eddie speak, he strongly suggests working your wrestling and striking if your interest is MMA. But that is not where he can help you most. If you're looking for someone to give your school a complete curriculum from A to Z, 10th Planet might not be the best choice. If you're looking for a system to compliment your existing program, or if you're an BJJ/MMA fighter looking for and edge over other BJJ/MMA competitors, maybe it is. 
 
Can you clarify your response here?

You asserted that 10th Planet BJJ was designed for MMA (point #8).  Since MMA commonly includes: clinch, striking techniques and throws I'm confused by the response you gave (quoted above).  Does 10th Planet include techniques dealing with strikes, clinch and throws?  Does 10th Planet spar with strikes, clinch and throws? 

I may have misunderstood......


i think elliot meant that the 10th planet jj system was designed for the "ground fighting aspect" of mma.

forumnewb - 
paw - 
Open Mat BJJ - 2. The system does not have a comprehensive standing aspect whether that consists of a strategy to clinch, striking techniques, or throwing techniques, so cross training extensively would be mandatory for self defense, a real fight, or MMA.



Agreed, but when is cross training not necessary? Is that not like saying Muay Thai is ineffective because you have to learn what to do on the ground, too? To hear Eddie speak, he strongly suggests working your wrestling and striking if your interest is MMA. But that is not where he can help you most. If you're looking for someone to give your school a complete curriculum from A to Z, 10th Planet might not be the best choice. If you're looking for a system to compliment your existing program, or if you're an BJJ/MMA fighter looking for and edge over other BJJ/MMA competitors, maybe it is. 

 
Can you clarify your response here?



You asserted that 10th Planet BJJ was designed for MMA (point #8).  Since MMA commonly includes: clinch, striking techniques and throws I'm confused by the response you gave (quoted above).  Does 10th Planet include techniques dealing with strikes, clinch and throws?  Does 10th Planet spar with strikes, clinch and throws? 



I may have misunderstood......




i think elliot meant that the 10th planet jj system was designed for the "ground fighting aspect" of mma.


Does that mean that 10th Planet includes techniques dealing with strikes, clinch, throws, etc... and spars with strikes, clinch, throws, etc...?



I know this is the interwebs and all, but I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just trying to understand.

paw - 
forumnewb - 
paw - 
Open Mat BJJ - 2. The system does not have a comprehensive standing aspect whether that consists of a strategy to clinch, striking techniques, or throwing techniques, so cross training extensively would be mandatory for self defense, a real fight, or MMA.

Agreed, but when is cross training not necessary? Is that not like saying Muay Thai is ineffective because you have to learn what to do on the ground, too? To hear Eddie speak, he strongly suggests working your wrestling and striking if your interest is MMA. But that is not where he can help you most. If you're looking for someone to give your school a complete curriculum from A to Z, 10th Planet might not be the best choice. If you're looking for a system to compliment your existing program, or if you're an BJJ/MMA fighter looking for and edge over other BJJ/MMA competitors, maybe it is. 
 
Can you clarify your response here?

You asserted that 10th Planet BJJ was designed for MMA (point #8).  Since MMA commonly includes: clinch, striking techniques and throws I'm confused by the response you gave (quoted above).  Does 10th Planet include techniques dealing with strikes, clinch and throws?  Does 10th Planet spar with strikes, clinch and throws? 

I may have misunderstood......


i think elliot meant that the 10th planet jj system was designed for the "ground fighting aspect" of mma.

Does that mean that 10th Planet includes techniques dealing with strikes, clinch, throws, etc... and spars with strikes, clinch, throws, etc...?

I know this is the interwebs and all, but I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just trying to understand.


alright, let me clarify it even more, the name of the school is, 10th planet JIU JITSU - the system is geared towards the "ground grappling aspect" of mma. we don't roll/spar at 10th planet while punching (unless one of our mma fighters is training for a fight), but if you understand the concept of clinching from the bottom, in the guard (or on top), then the moment you start rolling with punches, you will not be in for a rude awakening as opposed playing the non-clinching open type of game.

Wutang - It took Eddie YEARS to get good at it, so you have to imagine it'll take other people even longer to get good at it.

Eddie would always go as much no-gi as possible after purple belt or so in the academy - that's the stories I've heard from the guys who've been at the academy about Eddie.

I wouldn't say Eddie's system is the end all be all for BJJ - I think it's a great tool to add to your skills.

They do get defensive when people disagree with their "techniques" and/or counters. I find that part the most entertaining - read that 100% thread. I don't hate on their system or their self-promotion, but I will call them on BS if I see it. :)

btw, kuan, I still hate you for posting that clip of me vs. Mark Vives. ;)



haha, if it means anything. i don't think anyone has seen that clip since.


anyone else want to address my points?

InvisiblePinkUni - "The Pyramid (commonly known as the overwrap or wizzer guard)"
So why make up gayass names as if the thing is a "new" development?


the overwrap or wizzer guard? are you referring to a traditional closed guard position with an overhook? or are you are referring to a variation where you have an overhook, including a leg curl on the back of your opponent's head (on the same side as the overhook), while grabbing wrist control with the non-overhooking hand?

the pyramid is quite different from the overwrap/wizzer guard.

forumnewb - 
InvisiblePinkUni - "The Pyramid (commonly known as the overwrap or wizzer guard)"
So why make up gayass names as if the thing is a "new" development?


the overwrap or wizzer guard? are you referring to a traditional closed guard position with an overhook? or are you are referring to a variation where you have an overhook, including a leg curl on the back of your opponent's head (on the same side as the overhook), while grabbing wrist control with the non-overhooking hand?

the pyramid is quite different from the overwrap/wizzer guard.



lol@quite different

this is the exact bullshit i'm talking about.

the "pyramid" is the overhook triangle. in doing that move, it's important to keep his posture broken (you can call it a "leg curl"), and control his wrist.

it's the same thing.

kuan - 
forumnewb - 
InvisiblePinkUni - "The Pyramid (commonly known as the overwrap or wizzer guard)"
So why make up gayass names as if the thing is a "new" development?


the overwrap or wizzer guard? are you referring to a traditional closed guard position with an overhook? or are you are referring to a variation where you have an overhook, including a leg curl on the back of your opponent's head (on the same side as the overhook), while grabbing wrist control with the non-overhooking hand?

the pyramid is quite different from the overwrap/wizzer guard.



lol@quite different

this is the exact bullshit i'm talking about.

the "pyramid" is the overhook triangle. in doing that move, it's important to keep his posture broken (you can call it a "leg curl"), and control his wrist.

it's the same thing.


i was assuming that when ipu said the overwrap/wizzer guard, he was referring to just a regular closed guard with an overhook, which is different from the pyramid. and btw, the pyramid is not an overhook triangle, it's a control position that leads to a triangle among other subs and/or control positions.