Nothing but newaza (ground techniques):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9K6BZRH89Ck
Hi,
I trained Judo for a number of years in the 1990s. I am really not impressed with that video, or others like it. Here’s why:
A lot of that stuff would not have worked in things like BJJ, because in Judo the guy getting submitted is usually just turtled up and/or not moving in hopes the ref will stand them up if they withstand the attack. So, the attacks are usually done against a relative unmoving (for lack of better term) opponent, as opposed to someone who is trying to do the same to you and is grappling you for 6 minutes. A lot of these Judoka are like a fish out of water with new waza and are just frozen there and just looking to weather the storm. I’m not saying that there is no good ne waza being used, but more the rules of the sport makes for a lot of competitors who don’t want to engage in ne waza and end up getting submitted.
Just my opinion.
Fantastic video. I love the submissions in Judo and Sambo. Judo armbars are so damn fast.
And I love the clock chokes. I've been incorporating them into my game. Strike like lightning.
HotSteppa - Hi,I trained Judo for a number of years in the 1990s. I am really not impressed with that video, or others like it. Here’s why:
A lot of that stuff would not have worked in things like BJJ, because in Judo the guy getting submitted is usually just turtled up and/or not moving in hopes the ref will stand them up if they withstand the attack. So, the attacks are usually done against a relative unmoving (for lack of better term) opponent, as opposed to someone who is trying to do the same to you and is grappling you for 6 minutes. A lot of these Judoka are like a fish out of water with new waza and are just frozen there and just looking to weather the storm. I’m not saying that there is no good ne waza being used, but more the rules of the sport makes for a lot of competitors who don’t want to engage in ne waza and end up getting submitted.
Just my opinion.
Thank you for the dialogue. You’re right: a lot of those techniques would NOT work in BJJ. In BJJ, you can lie on your back for upwards of 5 minutes at a time, waiting and baiting your opponent into slipping up, then capitalizing on it with a submission. Judo’s ruleset doesn’t allow for that much time to set up and work an attack on the ground. Yes, in judo, guys tend to turtle up and just stay there until they are stood up by the ref. And you’re also right: there are high-level judoka who have a ground game that is for shit.
On the other hand, sometimes I enjoy watching ground attacks that are more bust-through-the-fucking-door-and-submit as opposed to some 15-step sequence that relies on pure technique and precise movements down to the nearest centimeter.
I have wanted to see an IJF vs. IBJJF newaza competition for a while. I’ll be the first to say it: the IBJJF guys would probably take it. Then again, depending on the rule set, you might just end up seeing the IBJJF guys getting stuck under a pin to the point that their ground game is rendered completely useless. If leglocks are involved, however, the judo guys are at a big disadvantage since most serious judoka probably don’t train leglocks given that they are illegal under judo rules.
Judo newaza can be awesome and it often requires a different mindset/skillset than in BJJ. The main differences being 1) Time is of the essence, 2) Limited use of the guard, 3) Focus is to pin or submit (a sweep is worthless if it doesn't lead to either), and 4) No expectation that your opponent fight's back. The one area that I believe some judokas are superior at is the transition from standing to submission. Think Dave Camarillo. Some judokas have amazing transitions that are so technical and precise. Once the match hits the ground they rarely have the fluidity of a top tier BJJ player, but their ability to apply a submission during that small window is often unparalleled. Rafaela Silva is a great example. Her transitions from standing to armbar are amazing.
Ttt
The judo on that video is IJf "A" level. Not all the competitiors are Olympic level players though. I saw a few of the top players in that video. Not the cream of the crop so to speak. When you are fighting someone who has better standup skills and you get rocked with a throw your instincts are to turtle up to play defensive and get a restart. Judokas for the most part do not pull guard after they get thrown for fear of getting pinned. It is not an instinct. The key in that video is like Aaron said it is transition judo. You can't compare it to BJJ. I don't know if anyone on this forum has ever been rocked by throw in judo competition and wondered how did I end up in a ground submission where your judo/BJJ was of no use. I have and asked myself how did I end up like and this and why can't I get out. It is the nature of the sport. It is not fair to analyze it in the context of BJJ. Throws is what leads to this type of ground work.
Am I insane for wanting to starting Judo at 33 years old??
I’ve trained bJJ for some time…and I do OK even against some BJJ black belts who compete here and there. I would say most BJJ guys totally underestimate the grip / positioning of top Judo players.
Case in point: I recently again rolled with a top 10 ranked IJF Judoka of the 90kg weight class, was in the Rio 2016 Olympics.
The feeling is unlike that of any BJJ player I’ve trained with and it reminded me just how good top level Judo really is and how awesome the athletes are.
Many BJJ techniques don’t work on them, say you can’t even break their grips in the most obvious of positions, etc. Sweeping is out of question unless you are a top top top BJJ black belt and even then it will be very hard. Submissions are super hard as you can’t break their posture easily…and they don’t get tired…at all.
Physically, athletically, etc, bar none, he was 2 levels above even the very top BJJ players I’ve rolled with. Just a different animal altogether. These are the high end of the athletic grappling spectrum, they not only have techniques but are also supremely physically gifted since small kids. I’ve not seen athletes like that in BJJ.
Thanks judom2, for your perspective from a BJJ player against Olympic level judo players. It takes one of yours to get the point home on the grappling level of Olympic level judoka.
Closed Guard. I started judo age 42 in 1993 but first I went to a Relson Gracie Seminar in Ann Arbor MI 1992 where I met judo contacts and future BJJ contacts. This is where BJJ started in Michigan. The judo guys brutalized me during my first 4 years of judo. Us BJJ guys were all fighting on guts back then since we were learning the techniques. Maybe one/two blue belts back then. We were affiliated with Royce Gracie back then.
I agree with most of what has been posted, but to further add to what I originally posted:
1) Top Judoka are insane athletic specimens much like wrestlers.
2) As mentioned above, the rules dictate a more "scrambling" type of game which naturally causes reactions and movements slightly different than what is in BJJ.
3) Judoka, in general, are better at standing to ground transitions.
4) They pin differently. None of these lazy "both knees up" BJJ pins. I'm talking hips to ground immobilizations. Hence, the escapes (a lot of twisting in Judo) generally look different than BJJ. A BJJer can never allow a top Judoka to pin them - they might not get out. Scarfholds by a world class Judoka are almost inescapable.
But we can't just look at top Judoka or only Olympic level, etc. In the 1990s I went around to a few different clubs in the region, perhaps 10 in total. And none of black belts could tap me on the ground. They all knew stuff, but it just wasn't trained like the throwing, and once I could weather the initial storm there was little chance. Even when we just did ne waza practice, most were not used to doing it for more than 30 seconds and it was fairly "unrefined" (for lack of a better word) after that. But where I found the bigger Judoka were effective was in pushing/smashing the legs to one side and pinning in sidemount. That was a nightmare because they weren't really seeking a submission, the pin was the submission.
I was lucky to train once with 2 high level guys (one eventually went to the Olympics,) in mid-1990s. I'd say the biggest thing (on the ground) was the grip fighting, followed by athleticism. It was the sheer ability to impose one's will. One I was able to tap simply because ne waza was not his emphasis and he rarely tried to win that way. The other had also done wrestling and was able to pin me for a few minutes. I eventually escaped but as the minutes went on, he wasn't wasn't used to someone being on their back attacking and I finally got him in a leglock. Both were actually surprised at the amount of techniques and movements they had no idea existed simply because they focused on stand-up and never had (at that time) heard of BJJ and its strategies derived from having more time to execute strategies. That's all changed now, of course.
judom2 - I've trained bJJ for some time...and I do OK even against some BJJ black belts who compete here and there. I would say most BJJ guys totally underestimate the grip / positioning of top Judo players.Case in point: I recently again rolled with a top 10 ranked IJF Judoka of the 90kg weight class, was in the Rio 2016 Olympics.
The feeling is unlike that of any BJJ player I’ve trained with and it reminded me just how good top level Judo really is and how awesome the athletes are.
Many BJJ techniques don’t work on them, say you can’t even break their grips in the most obvious of positions, etc. Sweeping is out of question unless you are a top top top BJJ black belt and even then it will be very hard. Submissions are super hard as you can’t break their posture easily…and they don’t get tired…at all.
Physically, athletically, etc, bar none, he was 2 levels above even the very top BJJ players I’ve rolled with. Just a different animal altogether. These are the high end of the athletic grappling spectrum, they not only have techniques but are also supremely physically gifted since small kids. I’ve not seen athletes like that in BJJ.
There is a book called the Pajama game, where a top level Judo guy rolls with Roger and apparently its an all out war. So I believe what you say
HotSteppa - Hi,I trained Judo for a number of years in the 1990s. I am really not impressed with that video, or others like it. Here’s why:
A lot of that stuff would not have worked in things like BJJ, because in Judo the guy getting submitted is usually just turtled up and/or not moving in hopes the ref will stand them up if they withstand the attack. So, the attacks are usually done against a relative unmoving (for lack of better term) opponent, as opposed to someone who is trying to do the same to you and is grappling you for 6 minutes. A lot of these Judoka are like a fish out of water with new waza and are just frozen there and just looking to weather the storm. I’m not saying that there is no good ne waza being used, but more the rules of the sport makes for a lot of competitors who don’t want to engage in ne waza and end up getting submitted.
Just my opinion.
And BJJ’s approach towards stand up and newaza doesn’t work outside of BJJ competitions. Just enjoy the beauty of grappling.
Judo and BJJ compliment each other greatly. I wouldn’t start training at a later age lol, the falls in judo are fucking brutal. We had a judo BB come into our BJJ club many years ago and he just passed your guard using pure strength and put you in a scarfhold and that was the end of that. He gave up once he got swept though.
Not impressed…
Pfft…wouldn’t work in BJJ
Typical. Just lookin’ for that standup.
Silly judo man. Should’ve leg locked him!
Red Stuff - Not impressed...
TBH if black girl pulled guard right away that choke wouldn’t have worked
That other shit you posted is pretty badass