Squared Circle - I can't wait for this battle between a chemically-enhanced roid monster and Mark Coleman.
You're missing the distinction between just striking on the ground and using GnP as a tactical approach. Before Coleman, people struck on the ground, but they didn't dominate positionally to facilitate striking effectively...they just got a takedown and improvised from there (which is what I was getting at when I pointed out Severn's submission wins...he didn't have any GnP wins in the early days except for the TKO over an easily-cut Oleg).
Another comparison: lots of martial arts used armbars before BJJ, but BJJ put the armbar into a new, position-based context, popularizing an entirely new tactical approach to fighting. Same techniques, new style.
sifu michael - You're missing the distinction between just striking on the ground and using GnP as a tactical approach. Before Coleman, people struck on the ground, but they didn't dominate positionally to facilitate striking effectively...they just got a takedown and improvised from there (which is what I was getting at when I pointed out Severn's submission wins...he didn't have any GnP wins in the early days except for the TKO over an easily-cut Oleg).
Another comparison: lots of martial arts used armbars before BJJ, but BJJ put the armbar into a new, position-based context, popularizing an entirely new tactical approach to fighting.
I was just thinking your line of argument sounded suspiciously like old JiuJitsu-is-not-Judo argument...
Here I think you're making waaaaaay to subtle a distinction, to the point where it's just plain wrong. Coleman had better wrestling, not a revolutionary new insight into taking guys down and whaling on them.
In Beneteau's very first fight in the UFC, he immediately took down Todd Medina, went right to mount and punched him until he tapped. NO DIFFERENT than anything Coleman did. If you want to credit a wrestler for "inventing" GnP as a consistent strategy, it should probably be Beneteau. Unfortunately for him, the next time he tried it, he fell right into a guillotine against Taktarov, lost again to Oleg by quick sub, and was quickly forgotten.
When Severn showed up at UFC 4, I don't think even he knew what the hell he was going to do to finish those fights. His "submissions" were really just about him being about 70 pounds heavier than his opponents and tossing them and twisting them like a playful gorilla until they'd had enough and gave up their backs for a crude rear naked choke.
After losing to Gracie (and maybe watching the tape of Ken Shamrock at UFC 3 using GnP to get two stoppages), he realized that punching guys on the ground was a good thing. He pummeled Joe Charles, until Charles like his predecessors gave up his back (climbing up the fence no less) for an easy choke. He stopped Oleg with GnP. He probably would have done the same to Beneteau, except that there was just an easy keylock there.
He GnP'd Tank and Oleg at Ultimate Ultimate 1. It was definitely in his repertoire and was his preferred attack whenever his opponent wasn't compeletely clueless about subs. Ken Shamrock was similar in this way.
BTW, I checked and Coleman did have one more win by choke in his first six fights. (Julian Sanchez? I have no memory of this at all). Anyway, thats 33% of his first six (before the Maurice Smith fight and the end of the Coleman "era") by sub.
Again, Coleman may have coined the phrase "Ground and Pound". I don't remember, but I'll be happy to give him that. But I don't accept at all that he invented something that is pretty basic to fighting. He just happened to be better at it than his predecessors.
As has been explained, its not that Coleman invented throwing a punch on the ground.
Its that he based his entire game around the strategy of GnP.
He bounced around out of range on the feet, shot and took you down, then used control positions to keep you from escaping while he delivered punches, elbows, knees and headbutts. If these ended your night then great, if they got you to open up a crank he took that too.
He had a whole system where he'd take what you gave him. If you locked his arms up he used his head, when your hand came up to block that, he worked your body, etc.
Nobody before Coleman was consistently coming out, avoiding the striking game, taking people down, pinning them, and pummeling them AS THEIR INTENDED STRATEGY FROM THE ONSET.
i love mark coleman, and he will surprise you all when he beats (maybe not destroys) Bonner.
I don't know how anyone can credit Dan Severn as a ground and pound guy. When I think back to his matches I recall some of the most uncertain, helpless strikes I have ever seen carry someone to victory.
HELWIG - As has been explained, its not that Coleman invented throwing a punch on the ground.
Its that he based his entire game around the strategy of GnP.
He bounced around out of range on the feet, shot and took you down, then used control positions to keep you from escaping while he delivered punches, elbows, knees and headbutts. If these ended your night then great, if they got you to open up a crank he took that too.
He had a whole system where he'd take what you gave him. If you locked his arms up he used his head, when your hand came up to block that, he worked your body, etc.
Nobody before Coleman was consistently coming out, avoiding the striking game, taking people down, pinning them, and pummeling them AS THEIR INTENDED STRATEGY FROM THE ONSET.
Except that Ken Shamrock did that in UFC 3, and against Taktarov and in his second Royce fight.
He wasn't as good at it as Coleman, but that was his strategy.
Coleman is the Godfather of G&P
Subtle distinctions are all that separate many styles of fighting.
Executing a specific gameplan strategically tailored to one's strengths with a concrete idea of how to A.) finish a fight, and B.) control the range and location of the fight? That's a style. That a few others had thrown some strikes from the ground while fishing for a finish (or hoping to stall their way to victory ala Ken Shamrock) does not qualify as a style. In this instance, we're not just talking about the technique; we're talking about the planned execution of said technique within a prepared tactical framework. Nobody has copied the Severn/Beneteau model, because there was no model to copy: their "just wing it" lack of a concrete style didn't hold up once they started encountering fighters who weren't (let's be honest here) way out of their depth in the first place...whereas Coleman's GnP style became a successful theoretical and practical model copied by how many fighters? A style produces results that can be replicated.
I respect where your opinion is coming from, tryptophan, and you argue it well, but we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
jbapk -HELWIG -
Nobody before Coleman was consistently coming out, avoiding the striking game, taking people down, pinning them, and pummeling them AS THEIR INTENDED STRATEGY FROM THE ONSET.
Except that Ken Shamrock did that in UFC 3, and against Taktarov and in his second Royce fight.
He wasn't as good at it as Coleman, but that was his strategy.
Exactly. Seriously, what was Dan Severn doing if not "taking people down, pinning them, and pummeling them AS THEIR INTENDED STRATEGY FROM THE ONSET"? Yeah, he got a few more subs than Coleman, but those were just given to him on a platter. Otherwise, he'd just sit on the guy and hit him. What else was he going to do, box?
We all agree now that Coleman did not invent GnP (although I think we also all agree that he coined the phrase).
But this idea of Mark Coleman, Phd., creating a vast framework of GnP theory... I mean, come on guys... You're a really good wrestler. You don't strike very well. Guys in the early UFC's were helpless on their backs. GnP naturally follows...
Coleman just happened to do it BETTER than his predecessors. He was also VERY LUCKY not to run into a Taktarov or Gracie during the initial run of fights that made his reputation. Otherwise, he'd be looking at 30 minute stalemates that would have made his "style" seem lame and ineffective (just like with Shamrock). If Coleman fights Mo Smith and Pete Williams in his first two fights, does he get remembered as the "inventor of GnP"? No way. Just like Severn, (young) Shamrock, Beneteau, etc. are forgotten.
But as sifu michael says, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. I should really have let this go, but it ("Coleman invented GnP") is something that gets said all the time without question, and the noobies parrot it now without knowing the history. Oh, and also I'm bored, so...
Lord Kancho - I don't know how anyone can credit Dan Severn as a ground and pound guy. When I think back to his matches I recall some of the most uncertain, helpless strikes I have ever seen carry someone to victory.
A lot of that is luck in the opponents he had. When he fought opponents that knew how to defend, or were too dangerous to risk letting up (Tank), he looked bad. Just like Coleman in the Smith and Williams fights. And of course, he wasn't as good at anything as Coleman was.
Severn did lay serious beatdowns to Joe Charles and Oleg in the first fight.
JimmersonzGlove - Didn't he coin the phrase? I thought he said in an interview...im gonna take him down. im gonna ground him. im gonna pound him. or something like that.
I (vaguely) remember this as well.
PTM2020 - Coleman is the Godfather of G&P
I have no problem with this -- he was the best early practitioner.
TTT for Coleman still mixing it up in the cage!