"Mephisto: does he use actual barrels or bags? "
Sorry for the late reply...
It is indeed a BARREL full of rice, with the top open. You would then proceed by punching through that opening in the top, plunging your fist into the rice itself.
"And, no matter what, you will occasionally break your hand/fingers/knuckles sparring no matter how much grip training you do."
I tend to disagree with iceberg's comments above. He's mostly in agreement with everyone though I would say and obviously knows a lot about what he is saying.
I don't agree with the "occasionally". we have guys (world champion and international class muay thai) who mostly train barefist, always really conscious of the way the hold their fist (it is very different to the boxer's usual grip). They spend a lot of time doing special hand conditioning routines that work a treat.
If you train your hands properly they are much more able to take accidental hits than usual. With the fists closed without wraps and gloves, there is no movement in the hand. It is solid. So when it gets hits accidentally, it is rarely if ever damaged. Sure, every now and then you tweak the thumb or something, but if the hands are well trained the effect is nowhere as bad, the rate of recovery is much better and you miss less training.
"If you don't wrap you will get arthritis later in life, at a bare minimum. If you do wrap you will probably get arthritis a few years later than you would have otherwise, and you will break fewer knuckles along the way."
I don't agree with the arthritis thing either. There are other more relvant issues that cause arthritis and if you train your hands properly then it is not one of them.
The key, as I have been taught, is training your hands so that when you close them, there is no movement. Absolutely no movement at all. That means you are trying to squeeze the blood out of them. The other thing is that the training has to be done right or you WILL damage your knuckles.
It can be done, it has been done by countless fighters, so maybe it is worth looking at.
ice kuhl--
where do you train? I've trained with top Thai fighters and EVERYONE wears gloves at the camps that I've seen if they're hitting the bags or pads.
Boxers hit much, much, much harder with thier hands than traditional MT guys do.
I have pretty fucked up hands from boxing and doing MT--but mostly from boxing, and almost all of my nagging injuries are due to NOT wrapping and getting in the ring to spar.
One bad punch that gets picked up on the other guy's forehead=big swollen busted knuckles.
I don't mean to sound too anti-heavy bag, I just feel that it's not the be-all and end-all of striking training.
grandpab: thanks a lot for that site. i've been skimming through it, and I'll probably print it out this weekend and read it in detail.
How much do speedbags usually cost? I've found a few heavybags in a few stores, but no speed bags. I'm content right now in terms of heavy bags with an old matress, so I'll probably start hunting for a speedbag.
Also, I'm not really looking to get into fights. I'm just interested in actually developing some sort of striking ability. That being said, I'd actually rather learn how to develop that ability without possibly injuring my hands. Do you think just using wraps would be enough? Or would you reccomend a set of boxing gloves?
Mephisto: That sounds pretty interesting. I'm not sure if I'll try it (I might if I'm not too busy during the holidays), but I've definitely got me a huge truckload of rice I can try it on.
yacob79 wrote:
* "sand in bags settles to pretty much concrete hardness pretty fast,"
That describes EXACTLY what's happened to my bag! I think more and more I should've gotten a water-filled one.
Here's a great gem on this topic from stickgrappler's page: http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/fb/fbpower.html
Has anyone got any good bag workouts or workouts incorporating heavy bag with other exercises?
Iceberg:
I am in Melbourne Australia. The gym I am at has boxers, MT fighters, BJJ, MMA and full-contact karate fighters. The whole thing started at our end of year break-up BBQ when we were all sitting around discussing hand injuries and the karate guys who fight barefist knockdown stuff seemed to have a shitload less injuries than anyone else. And we watch them train so we know it isn't because they are soft. They train and fight damn hard. Sure, the boxers are snappy and hard and punch more smoothly but some of the karate guys really punch hard too, so I don't wanna take anything away from them. And they fight bare fist like I said so avoiding injuries when they hit elbows and bone and stuff is part of their game. So they showed us some of their hand conditioning ideas and we compared how to hold a fist a stuff and despite the skeptics it does make a difference.
I understand where you're coming from I think Iceberg and respect that. But when someone who trains all the tme takes off their wraps and starts to go barefisted, then the result is nearly always damage to the hand because the way they hold their hand is not going to change. But with a bit of this different training everything changes, especially the rat eof injury.
Take it or leave it, I don't care either way. But if you did try it for a few months, you would find differences. Basically, the karate guys are used to hitting without the wraps and gloves so they don't rely on them.
"I have pretty fucked up hands from boxing and doing MT--but mostly from boxing, and almost all of my nagging injuries are due to NOT wrapping and getting in the ring to spar.
One bad punch that gets picked up on the other guy's forehead=big swollen busted knuckles."
What about in the street? Have you ever hit someone on the nut with a bare fist? How was the hand then?
I don't mean to sound too anti-heavy bag, I just feel that it's not the be-all and end-all of striking training.
I have hit people more times than I care to remember without a glove, but I also didn't hit as hard then.
The main reason I think the karate guys you train with have avoided knuckle injuries is that (if knockdown karate there is like it is in most places) they aren't allowed to punch to the head in competition.
Still, more power to you if you don't want to wrap your hands...they're yours after all.
Hand conditioning does make a difference. Bare-knuckle boxers conditioned there hands for fighting and then went hours in the ring and only rarely broke their hands/knuckles.
Again, much of that was due to the fact that they didn't punch to the head much. Body punching was the order of the day, and a round ended when one man fell.
Just about every boxing coach I've worked with has made me do hand strengthening exercises. Modern boxers hit harder than a guy from back then could ever dream of, subsequently they will break their hands if they don't wrap.
I also did a TON of hand conditioning at one point--I did Iron Palm and Iron Fist for about two years--and my hands are LESS prone to injury now than the used to be...because I punch correctly now.
Buy an empty heavybag (you can get them cheap)
Buy some rice in 50 lbs bags
take some lawn and leaf trash bags and use them to incrimentally fill the heavy bag with rice until it is full. Unlike sand, this will provide just enough give, but a good solid surface and will last a hell of a lot longer. The trash bags also help keep the amount of moister the rice absorbs from the air down.
A full setup with a speed bag will run you upwards
of $50, try the website for ringside or everlast. Keep
in mind that the speedbag is a training tool for
developing attributes and does not really duplicate
punches you use in the ring or the street. You really
need a bit of instruction on the speed bag or it will
just never work for you. If you need info on how to
hit it correctly post a question on a new thread and
I will post some basic instructions.
Grandpab
Thanks a lot for your suggestions. I'm probably gonna take the most common advice on this thread and join a gym.
slim, where did you get the idea bareknuckle boxers didnt punch to the head much? Ive been reading up on bareknuckle boxing from James Boughton right up to Bob Fitzsimmons for years, and at all periods head punches were the favoured form of punch. When people got in close enough to deliver shovel hooks, etc, they were usually thrown or wrestled to the ground.
You grip your fist diffeently when it is bare fist.
I was in Academy Sports (a large chain sporting good store) and saw they had marked the Century 70# water bag (the Wave) down to under $20. I asked about it and was told they are discontinuing that model. Anyway of course I snapped that display model up and it is very nice indeed. You might consider checking out your local sporting goods stores that carry Century to see if you can find one marked down too.