A message from Nessa!

Hi everyone! This is Tulkas' wife. You can call me Nessa (that is the name of Tulkas' wife in the Silmarillian). I often read his posts on this forum. I have truly taken offense that my husband has been called a sexist. And I have this to say: MY HUSBAND IS NOT A "SEXIST"

I'd like to give a bit anecdotal evidence and leave the biblical theology to him, since he has already addressed that and no doubt plans to do so again.

There's a lady named Carol at our church. My husband has often called her one of the wisest, most seasoned Christians that he knows. We have asked her for advice several times, and always listen with rapt attention to what she has to say. She is single, works in an office, has never been married or had children. So she has never been filling the traditional office of wife and mother that women often fill. Yet my so called sexist husband goes to her for support, guidance, and advice.

Also, my husband and I have a very healthy marriage and understanding of our biblical roles as men and women. I have NEVER NEVER been made to feel less than an equal before Christ. Yet, in the home, I have been convicted through the Word of my precious Lord and Savior, that if I follow Paul's advice on the roles of men and women, that I will be happier, my marriage will prosper, and my children will grow up with a healthy idea of the different roles men and women play in a marriage partnership.

The key word there is different. Shawn (that's his name) and I were made to complement one another. If we were exactly the same we would have no use for each other. Also remember that a major reason that God gives us a marriage partner (just like anything else in our lives) is for our sanctification.

In our home, Shawn ALWAYS consults my opinion and preference. Guys, he even calls me to see if I mind if he spends ten bucks on lunch! Does this sound sexist to you? He ALWAYS consults me before making plans to go anywhere other than work, ALWAYS consults me when deciding where we are going to go as a family, ALMOST ALWAYS leaves all the decisions regarding holidays, family vacations, food, clothing, etc, etc, completely to me. Does this sound like a sexist to you?

Yet in our home, we have a biblical understanding of a wife in submission to her husband. So what then is different between our home and the next? I'll try to tell you...

In our marriage, just like any marriage there are disagreements. And just like most marriages we try to talk them out by putting both views forth and discussing them, giving each fair and equal weight. Yet when those rare occasions come that Shawn and I simply cannot come to an agreement, I "submit." I kindly, patiently, and lovingly defer to the decision of my husband. Do I do this because Shawn is so smart and always right? No. I do this because I trust that God, whether Shawn is right or not, is using this situation for the good of His purpose. I know that "All things work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose for them." I know that verse. I trust that verse, I believe it.

Do things always work out perfectly? No, but here's the beauty of it- it's a chance for me to step back and let God teach me to trust in Him, and let God teach my husband. I've tried teaching my husband! Guys- I know all of your wives have tried changing you. You know what it's called after the first time you say it? Nagging! And guys- does that make you want to change? NO! It makes you want to hide in the other room on the internet or the TV or whatever. But what happens when God tries to change you? It's beautiful, wonderful, and it makes you grow closer to Him!

My children will grow up in a house where Mom and Dad were equal, loved, cherished and adored. But they will grow up seeing that I trusted in God, not man, and allowed my husband to be the man of the house, having the final say in all matters.

Donna, are you married? If so, do you wear the pants in your house? What happens when there is an argument? Does it escalate? Or do you eventually give in and say, "I trust God, I know His Word, and I know that He will be faithful to complete the good work done in my husband."

Also, you may want to be careful running around calling people names and resorting to Ad Homonym. That's something a stereotypical woman would do.

If you want to make our gender look better and be more respected by a so-called sexist you may want to try patiently and reasonably backing up what you have to say with logical use of scripture and reason.

God Bless you all. I hope that you can re-read my husband's post with new patience, knowing that he in not a sexist.


Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

I advice you though on to ask yourself why did you get so angry about this subject, since you are sure it is not true?

I don´t use to feel hurt when somebody calls me something that I know myself well enought I don´t fit on the name calling.

Also, if the name calling hurt me, I would avoid from posting an answer. It is not wise to write when you are angry. You may regret later.

I still stand: women can preach. Whatever religion don´t allow this is sexist under my point of view.

Sorry, I don't listen to no damned women...



Cept for my wife, and Bam Bam Rubble... and now maybe Nessa, then there's my mom, Oh and my boss is a woman, then there's a lady counselor at my church, and then theres......

But I digress.

Excellent post.


In your mind, outside of the physical realm, is there any reason for the spirit to have an identity that might have gender as part of its nature? If so, don't you agree that the nature of something to some degree or another determines its position in the natural order?


you sound like an awesome woman, with an awesome family, and an awesome husband. I do not agree with your husbands position on women speaking in the church, but I never meant to call him sexist. Probably did imply it but what I meant was it makes him sound sexist.

I get angry about this issue because someone caused a major division in my church about six years ago, using this issue. A woman who I personally asked to share her understanding of worship, with our church, did so. And this young man divided a young church over the issue, accused me behind my back, and helped to ultimately tear down a beautiful ministry. There were other factors involved, but anyone there would tell you now, that this man was used by the enemy to sow division.

My position is based on over eighty hours of research, and intense study. I understand this is a contraversial subject, and many won't agree. I let my old wounds cause me to be angry, and that anger to come out towards your husband for this I am truly sorry. Your husband is a great scholar and it sounds a practitioner as well. Blessings to your family.

the rev


The spirits declare that they have no gender.

The spirit will be born in a body accordingly to the role it needs to fulfill to learn and to evolve.

"the nature of something to some degree or another determines its position in the natural order"

So is the red better than the blue? No, no, surely yellow is the best one (while the green is jealous at his corner). And, of course, it is better that they never mix together, otherwise strange colors will come to light, and people won´t know what is their "position in the natural order".

Being different does not mean "determined position in the natural order". And it is quite interesting that many people think that the order of women is obeying men. Sorry, but it is pure fight for power.


Sorry for the split on your church.

I know how heartbraking it is.


To say that men and women have different roles is hardly a fight for power. Your sex has the ability to reproduce, ours does not. Your sex is responsible for reproduction, for raising children, as can be seen from nature, its quite apparent to anyone who looks around. Therefore your sex has a completely different role than mine does in the natural order of things.

I didn´t know that women could reproduce without a male spermatozoid. Oh, ok, lets clone now. I still wonder how can a woman clone the Y chromossome without a man.

To say that women are responsible for reproduction is to step back from this responsability, that belongs to both father and mother. Stop hiding behind this "gender role" stuff.

From The Spirit´s Book:


200. Have spirits sex?

"Not as you understand sex; for sex, in that sense, depends on the corporeal organisation. Love and sympathy exist among them, but founded on similarity of sentiments."

201. Can a spirit, who has animated the body of a man, animate the body of a woman in a new existence, and vice versa ?

"Yes; the same spirits animate men and women."

202. Does a spirit, when existing in the spirit-world, prefer to be incarnated as a man or as a woman?

"That is a point in regard to which a spirit is indifferent, and which is always decided in view of the trials which he has to undergo in his new corporeal life."

"Spirits incarnate themselves as men or as women, because they are of no sex and, as it is necessary for them to develop themselves in every direction, both sexes. as well as every variety of social position. furnish them with special trials and duties, and with the opportunity of acquiring experience. A spirit who had always incarnated itself as a man would be only known by men, and vice versa."


Sex is all about creativity. Creativity is related to the mix of two things to create a third new one. To balance different things to find harmony.

Joshua, despite your intelligence, I`m sure you cannot walk in my shoes.

You were not refused a job. You were not refused to train in martial arts as a child. You may have been promoted in your job. You have your opinion taken in consideration.

This kind of discrimination happens to me all the time. Because I´m a woman. I hate "gender roles".

I still stand: women can preach. Whatever religion don´t allow this is sexist under my point of view.


I actually had put that the male does carry the seed, but I edited out of the post, what i mean is that a male cannot carry a baby to term, while a female can. Therefore your natural responsibility is to carry a baby to term, mine is not.

Your responsability is to take care of the woman while she is fragile!

donna tone it down, he never even implied it wasn't his responsibility to care for the mother. You are letting your own issues get the best of you, much like I did the other day. Please stop, especially the name calling

the rev

Rev, I`m sorry.

Not my issues, but issues of every single mother I met in my life.

There are single mothers because there are coward men that will not take the responsability to raise their own children, under the excuse that "to raise children is women role".


Im not one of them, that much I can say honestly. There may be many of them, but your trying to put me into your view of a typical male, and I simply will not fit in there.

To imply that Ive never experienced discrimination is also suprising to me. Lets not forget that my blood is jewish, and less than half a century ago 6 million of my cousins were murdered for nothing more than the fact they were Jews. Ive been discriminated against countless times because of this ignorance, and for many other things that have nothing to do with my ethnicity, so I know very well the feeling of discrimination, and I try very hard not to discriminate against anyone. I would just appreciate it if you would try to keep that in mind when reading my posts.

So keep that in mind too when you talk about "gender roles".

Done. Regardless of what you may think of me Donna, Im am not a sexist, even though I may believe that a woman was designed differently from a man so that she could serve a different purpose in Gods creation.