How much money are they spending per year? What percent of gross revenue are they putting back into the sport?
Great post, @ErikMagraken. To me, this is indeed the change that has the biggest bang for your buck â most upside compared to the downside. Iâve come to oppose the Ali Act because I think itâll hurt the sport and ultimately fighter pay. I strongly support unionization, but it poses immense challenges.
This change could be legislated in a much simpler way than the Ali Act. It also unites the organizers who support unionization (like Leslie Smith) and the Ali Act (like the MMAFA).
Imagine bitching about the company that YOU work for saying theyâre not paying you what youâre worth.
People would say, though shit, quit if you donât like it.
But for some reason, everyone thinks fighters are entitled to millions. Why???
People rightly complain about being paid all the time. What world do you live in? Tons of people are underpaid for their labor.
There is an alternative to quitting. You can organize. Thatâs why we have child labor protections, the weekend, paid time off, minimum wage, etc.
Many fighters are entitled to millions because their labor brings in millions for the UFC.
Are you a pinkerton or something?
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I donât think heâs a Pinkerton. I think heâs referring to an old principle that a lot of us were taught by our fathers. That principle is do your job, take your paycheck, and shut the fuck up. Now as a 33 year old man I still live by that, but only to a certain extent. If I feel like Iâm getting fucked then I will speak my peace. With that being said fighters obviously deserve more. Millions is probably a bit much for the average UFC fighter, but Iâd say at least 75â100k to show per fight is a good start.
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I really like the idea. untimed contracts leave fighters badly stuck, so surely this is better than any downside. struggling to think of a scenario where I would wish a fighter had a long contract lol
only one thing popped to mind, and itâs not necessarily a bad thing- champions would be able to jump ship and vacate. fighting for the title may become less of a driving factor, youâd get fuckers like BJ Penn jumping ship to K1.
but I think it would be a good thing, I like it when Dana has to work extremely hard to contain his anger at press conferences.
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I donât know if I can think of an example.
Oh wait I can. See:
-Every other sports league on the planet. They pay athletes 40-60% of the profits and still the owners make huge money. Being partners with the players hasnât hurt any of the old rich white guys who own teams.
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without reading the entire threadâŚ
What is the UFCâs incentive to make any of these changes?
None, now. There are 3 ways I could see it happening:
-
Congressional legislation â an alternative to the Ali Act that requires the UFC to treat fighters as bonafide independent contractors.
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A response to a potentially successful unionization election. The UFC could pull that out to defeat the vote.
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A settlement response to the antitrust lawsuit.
Seems like they are contacted the same way talent is contracted in Hollywood, and those actors are a part of a union.
I also thought the only fighters locked in, in perpetuity, were title holders - which makes absolute sense to me.
A SAG situation would be ideal for fighters.
But, youâre second point isnât the case, unfortunately. Fighters are locked in â the UFC can release them at any time, but they are signed to very long deals (in terms of time and numbers of fights).
Itâs certainly a compelling idea. I think it could be beneficial in some ways for sure, however there are some areas that would need to be fleshed out.
What happens in regards to injuries? Say a fighter signs the max 3 year deal, and sustains injury, or multiple injuries? Does that extend the contract in any way? I can see certain guys using that as a possible loophole in the final year, or to avoid match ups they donât feel are beneficial.
PEDâs? Not every organization even conducts tests. So a guy signs a deal, gets popped and is suspended for a year, indefinitely etcâŚwhat happens to the deal?
What about retirement with term remainingâŚor just sitting out because fighters donât feel they are getting enough, despite renegotiating after every fight?
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I didnât read all the responses, so itâs possible itâs been said alreadyâŚbut there are potential downsides youâre ignoring (Iâll get to those at the end). Also, I think that youâre focusing quite a bit on the headlines, and not enough on the majority. Hereâs what I mean by thatâŚyouâre talking about how this would help Jon Jones, how this would help a retired and very rich GSP. Iâve said it 100x on here, the issue with the pay scale isnât with guys like Jones and GSP. Yes, an increase is always welcomed for everyone, but in my opinion, the biggest area for change is in MMAs upper middle class.
Why? Well, thereâs many more fighters in that rangeâŚand theyâre vastly underpaid in my opinion when compared to the champions. A few recent examples, Mike Chandler and Colby CovingtonâŚthese guys are headlining PPVs in title fights and get $500K flat. God money, no doubtâŚbut they lose and go back to headlining free cards while guys like Usman and Oliveira will make millions headlining PPVs. The difference between Colby and Usman or Chandler and Oliveira isnât much, very similarly skilled, yet champions will make millions per fight, and theyâll cap out at $500K unless they get another title fightâŚand those are the top paid guys.
Look at someone like Dan Hooker. Top 10 ranked guy, entered the fight with Chandler ranked 6-7 I think, and made $150K. Again, not bad moneyâŚbut should Oliveira be making 10x what someone like Hooker does? Wonderboy made $300K to beat Geoff Neal. The decision goes his way in the Woodley fight, he makes millions. Obviously being a champion should pay guys more moneyâŚbut the guys who are consistently in the top 5-10 and headlining ESPN cards should be making more $.
And if Wonderboy is only making $300K, what about guys below that tier? Guys ranked 10-20? Belal Muhammad made $65K/$65K to fight Leon Edwards. Heâs in the top 15. If Belal is only making $65k/$65k, what about the guys behind him in the rankings?
I donât care even a little bit about the guys on their first few fightsâŚtheyâre fighting in the UFC, but until you sign that second deal and prove youâre gonna be there for more than a few fights, Iâm not worried about those guys. I donât think if you go 1-3 and get cut, you deserve a huge amount of $ for thatâŚbut after you stick around and go 8-2 or something like that and start fighting ranked guys, you deserve quite a bit more.
Iâm googling around, and fucking Thiago Santos made $80K base in his last fight. WTF is that? Drew Dober making $60K to fight Makhachev, Casey kenny getting $40K to fight Dominick CruzâŚthatâs the shit people should be outraged about, not whether or not GSP can retire, get out of his contract then go box on triller. Who gives a fuck if Jon Jones isnât happy with getting $10MâŚit makes a good headline, but Thiago SantosâŚa guy who some thought beat Jon just made $80-fucking-K. Thatâs a fucking joke.
Thatâs where the focus should beâŚhow do we get the really great fighters that donât win a championship paid?
As for the 2 year contract thingâŚsome unforeseen downside, it forces the UFC to make a decision on fighters earlier than theyâd like to, and the UFC is less likely to get behind them from a marketing standpoint if they only have a short runway. Itâll help the guys like Jones and GSP that everyone knows, but itâll hurt the guys trying to breakthrough to the mainstream. Guys on the last fight of their deal would get buried on the cards, would end up matched with tougher opposition than they should be, because the UFC needs to figure out quickly what they haveâŚare they a legit prospect, or someone they can let go elsewhere?
As for your point on barrier of entryâŚIâm not sure itâs a good thing that weâd have new promoters popping up left and right. It helps some guys make $ in the short term (again, the headliners like JonesâŚor in the past Fedor, Arlovski who went to Affliction etc) but Affliction and other promoters like that pay their undercard guys even worse than the UFCâŚbecause itâs hard to make $ selling fights.
As for your point about the pay in boxingâŚyes, itâs much better for the elite starsâŚbut again, the guys a half tier below that, those guys donât make much either. There are world champions with multiple title defenses who weâve never heard of, who have never made the amount of $ even someone like Colby Covington is makingâŚguys who spent their whole life boxing. So few guys truly make real $ boxing, and I think part of the issue is that the model forces promoters try to make $ on every fight. I used to know a guy who managed boxers, some world championsâŚand he got one of his guys $300K to fight Miguel Cotto, and this was when Cotto was the fucking best, and breaking dudes facesâŚdude lost, and by the end of his career was making considerably less than even that.
Boxing tends to chew people up and spit them out, only paying their STARS the real $. MMA does a better job with that. Itâs still not good enough, but itâs better than boxing. If your goal is to have crazy shit going on like Fury vs Wilder 3 instead of the Fury vs Joshua fight we all wantedâŚyes, MMA should follow boxings model. If your only goal is to increase the pay the very top stars get, MMA should follow the boxing model. I donât think thatâs the issue with fighter pay, though.
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Imagine if the 2 year contracts were in place.
We would then have the potential of seeing guys like Ferguson, Felder, Hooker move over tonBellator and fight Pitbull.
Or, a guy like Gillespie. He could show his real worth and eventually come back a champion.
The 2/3 year contracts would make loaded divisions super fun.
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Thatâs possible, but it also would limit the UFCâs hold over these fighters and allow other promotions to be better competitors.
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it goes both ways, thoughâŚalso possible the UFC (and their deep pockets) snatches up the guys like McKee, Pitbull and any other fighter they view as a potential star and leave Bellator with a bunch of good fighters with vanilla personalities.
If everyone at Bellator was also up for contract negotiations, the UFC would just grab the champs they like, and let the Corey Andersonâs and Ryan Baderâs of the world fight in Bellator.
I get we all want better fighter payâŚbut how many guys total have ever said they hated their UFC deal and wanted out? There are guys like Poirier who are negotiating (and letâs be real, nobody else of going to pay him close to what the UFC is) and guys like the Diaz brothers, Jones, GSPâŚthe big star from time to timeâŚbut how many guys like Paul Felder have ever wanted out?
This post acts as if the UFC refuses to let guys hit free agency. How do guys like Eddie Alvarez manage to do it then? The Pettis brothersâŚlots of guys decide they want to test free agency and do it. These guys all have teammates, most of them share the same managers. If someone like Paul Felder, Gillespie or Tony Ferguson (using the guys in the post above) thought they could make more $ elsewhere, they wouldnât extend their contracts. Theyâd fight out their current deal and move on. Their manager would say (or their teammate would say) âhey Paul, we just got Eddie XYZ dollars to fight in One and I think I can get you ABCâŚyou should really think about fighting out this contract and testing free agency.â
Outside of a few big stars who are actively trying to negotiate a huge payday, we almost never see anyone from the UFC wanting to leave.
Erik,
one question I have is what if a fighter wants to sit out the final year of his contract? The UFC canât use him to their fullest. Of course the fighter doesnât get paid.
Iâm thinking of a scenario where a fighter on a 2 year contract wins 2 major fights in his first year and gets all kind of attention and other offers. Whatâs to stop him from holding out on his final year?
Does there need to be like a 3 fight guarantee so the promoter gets his worth for promoting the guy? They donât want to promote a guy and then lose him to other promotions. One negative could be that orgs are hesitant to promote guys too much. Building their name is what gives them value. Orgs donât want to invest and then lose that value to some other org.
I think most people that complain about fighter pay have absolutely no understanding of how a business works and the comparisons to other sports are fundamentally flawed in every way but I canât disagree with the length of contract idea.
Any more than a couple of years seems a bit unfair as the fighterâs landscape can change a lot in that time. That said - it will disadvantage fighters that underperform on said contract also.
i understand, but thats not perpetuity.
CORRECT ME WHERE I AM WRONG:
when time or fights are fulfilled, they are free to renegotiate for better terms and leverage other offers against the ufc - unless they hold a title, and in those instances they have to lose their title to get out of perpetuity.
this is why GSP doesnt fight anymore, except if his terms are met. he never lost his title and is still therefore under contract with the ufc until he does. he has that kind of leverage and god bless him for it regardless of being a greasing bastard.
he actually would probably need to lose both titles.
i suspect this i why interim titles are a thing. not just to fulfill potential contractual obligations but also to lock in fighters when the champ is not available.
Fighters that arenât getting play but are real good, Makhachev, Gillespie, Leon could definitely benefit. Even Hooker type would benefit. They could shoot to top of Bellator rankings and get big fights to redeem themselves (Hooker) or prove their worth (Leon, Makachev).
Also, the reason fighters donât leave ufc often is becuase itâs not the culture in the sport. But it quickly would become the culture. Just as it is in sports.