SgtMac
I like those rules but BJJ would so dominate even more than it does now.
SDBJJ, it's really sad that you bring up the point about "MMA" and "reality" and then try to paint it as a strawman attack when I offer counter evidence to that point. Here are excepts from your post (capitalized parts are for emphasis):
"Its the CLOSEST THING TO A REAL FIGHT without striking.... These are stupid and arbitrary rules that belong in pure sports with no agenda FOR REALITY.... is because it does the best IN REALITY BASED CONDITIONS.... Because it trains under the MOST REALISTIC RULE SET. Isnt this exactly what we learned with the MMA REVOLUTION???
"
Obviously if there is anyone with A.D.D. here it's you. YOU brought up the MMA/Reality crap. In fact, it was the basis of every single point YOU tried to make in that post.
Unique, all that is well and good but you're just being apologetic about ADCC being a no-gi BJJ tourney. Why there rules are that way is basically irrelevant. If you would just come out and say, "Yes, ADCC is a no-gi BJJ tourney" then there would be no need for your long post.
Secondly, why do you keep implying that there are wrestlers and judoka (i.e. people who don't train BJJ) bitching about the rules? Can you name some of these imaginary wrestlers and judokas?
AFAICT it looks like the original poster was basically saying ADCC was MORE INTERESTING TO WATCH when it featured more competitors from styles other than BJJ.
Are you going to give more points for High Amplitude sweeps ? Like if I put my feet on your hips and sweep you clean over my body, landing you flat on your back, shouldn't I get more than 2? Or does that same move, initiatiated from the feet, only get more than 2 pts?
Its funny that you have to get away from a SUBMISSION-based rule system in order to have other grappling styles compete effectively with Jiu-Jitsu. Great advertisement IMO.
Julius Parks constantly hits the nail on the head with his post.
I don't think that many people are understanding the point that is being made regarding ADCC being, in essence, a no-gi BJJ tourney as opposed to a rule set under which people of various disciplines can compete, even though it was designed to be so.
Rather than repeat myself or others who have made the same point, let me illustrate why we believe that it is this way.
If ADCC is supposed to be a rule set under which people of various disciplines can compete against each other, of what significance should it be whether or not the rules under which it is contested and the reasons for why points are awarded, are ones that most accurate replicate that which is most effective for No Holds Barred combat? If it is about getting people of various disciplines to test their wares against each other under a common rule set, the emphasis ought to be on EQUITY, not the replication of No Holds Barred combat.
No one is denying that BJJ's philosophy of what is an advantageous position, or how victory should be determined in a grappling match designed to replicate real combat, is the best and most realistic for NHB fighting, as the early UFC's proved. What is being said is that ADCC must either
1) Admit that despite the intentions behind its creation is, as of now, merely a no-gi BJJ competition
or
2) If it continues to insist that it has a commitment to being a rule set under which people of various grappling disciplines compete against each other, it must have a rule set that is fair to the participants of the major, recognized, grappling styles.
I hope that my point has now been understood.
The point is this:
ADCC detractors are trying to say that the only reason BJJ guys win ADCC is because ADCC is a no-gi BJJ competition.
ADCC supporters are saying BJJers win ADCC because BJJers are the best at submitting people.
If submission=BJJ, then, yes, ADCC is no-gi BJJ.
Prik Khee Noo has nailed the correct and walks home with 3 hot chicks.
BJjer win at ADCC because BJJers are best at submitting people so yeah since ADCC is SUBMISSION wrestling tourney let's call it no-gi BJJ. Whole submission wrestling competition scene was pretty much no where to be found till BJJers came up with the idea to do no-gi competitions. If there were't BJJ we also would not even be discussio this as SW competitions would not even exists.
"there were't BJJ we also would not even be discussio this as SW competitions would not even exists."
Precisely because ADCC Submission Wrestling is no-gi BJJ.
There is no BJJ hate here, just acknowledgement of reality.
Furthermore, I have affinity for no sport like I do for BJJ, anyone who has followed my posts here and elsewhere will know that, so the "BJJ hate" argument does not hold at all in my case.
Actually, there was no no gi bjj UNTIL ADCC came around.
BJJ guys didnt develop the no gi thing. They just compete in ADCC because there was a lot of money to be had. When ADCC started getting lots of attention, then a lot of no gi tournaments started popping up.
It is not a no gi BJJ tournament. It is SUBMISSION tournament. I even think you are aloud to wear your gi. Saulo did.
I would like to see some more judo guys and sambo guys get invitations though.
"Actually, there was no no gi bjj UNTIL ADCC came around "
WRONG. "No-gi" bjj has existed since the birth of BJJ. We just dont separate it and dont call it "no gi BJJ" for us BJJers it is just BJJ regardless of if we roll with gi or without gi. The art of BJJ stays the same.
There was NO submission wrestling competitions whatsoever in any significant scale UNTIL ADCC came around. Whole concept of "submission wrestling" had been dead for a long time before ADCC (note: we BJJers dont even think that we do SW when we go and compete in SW competitions. We just go and do what we always do which is BJJ.)
and
the reason why ADCC came around is that BJJ guys spread their art to Abu Dhabi and local leaders started training BJJ. Basically without BJJ whole submission wrestling movement had never been revived.
"BJJ guys didnt develop the no gi thing." True we just revived it completely from it's non existant state.
"I would like to see some more judo guys and sambo guys get invitations though."
Why? They are moving away from invitations. I sincerely hope that in future no one gets invited and everyone but current champions have to go trough qualifiers. Judo and Sambo guys are free to do that. Btw. Igo Vovachin is a sambo guy, is he not.
To my knowledge, the Sheik whatever his name is, was in San Diego for college, and started training BJJ, enjoyed it and sinces hes the shiek, he through the biggest no gi tournament in the world.
I would like to see elite judo and sambo guys get invites, just because I would rather them in the tournament than some crappy MMA guys.
Igot repping Sombo in Abu Dhabi is like Wanderlie Silva repping BJJ in it, probably only worse.
No gi is NOT Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. It is submission wrestling.
And no gi has not been around since the birth of BJJ. Yeah bjj guys might have taken the gi off for a vale tudo fight, but thats it.
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu with WITH the gi, not without.
There is no slamming a guy in your guard and no neck cranks (including can openers used to open the guard. Points for passing the guard and knee on stomach but not side control.
ADCC is a no-gi bjj tourn, it is not a true submission wrestling championship for all styles.
I find myself drawn in to read the various point of views and arguements and at times it is entertaining to watch how other people's minds work.Screw the invitations: qualify. If you want to represent some other style do it. If you get tanked, do like the rest of the successful competitors and cross train. Rhadi and the Camarillos were good at their sport and crossed into BJJ to supplement. I train wrestling, Judo, and BJJ, because I see the obvious advantages of cross training. If anything can be learned from the progression of MMA is that style superiority is a dying thing. If you don't like the rules make your own tournament, or adapt to the game you are playing. Think of how much Camarillo actually did for Judo by competing in BJJ. It opened alot of eyes to the effectiveness to the techniques of Judo. If you are a Sambo killer play sambo. Or adapt your game and supplement so that you can compete in other rule formats. The choice is yours. I have always loved wrestling. I dont, however, want to see Cael Sanderson in ADCC. If I want to see the beauty of Cael's game I will watch freestyle, eh? I don't want them to change the rules so that Cael's crotch lift scores higher. Just my humble opinion. The entire point of competition is to expose the holes in your game, undoubtedly, if you are a Judo master your hole will probably not be the throws, but if you are tapped out on the ground wouldn't you want to add some focus in that area, not changing the rules so your focus area gets you the win. ADCC and FILA grappling are attempts at rule sets to provide a competitive platform for our sport, if you want to compete in them adapt to their rule sets or play your own game. Wow that's alot of rambling.
Anyway in the future, the champions will not come from Bjj. They will be people that comes from NoGi crosstraining (submission + wrestling). Is my humble opinion. Or not :-). What do you think?
bandwith this kind of evolution already happend in brazil and they called it luta livre (a little nogi BJJ mixed with wrestling,ect.) Time has proven training bjj mostly with the gi mixed with a little nogi produces the best grapplers.
Submission Wrestling is just a competition format. What I mean is that submission wrestling used to be a martial arts/wrestling style but it completely utterly died and faded out of existance long ago.
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is both without the gi or with the gi. Take the gi and our techniques, strategies and overall look at combat stays excat the same. Now let me rephrase: BJJ is BJJ be it with gi or without gi - BJJ is just BJJ.
"And no gi has not been around since the birth of BJJ. Yeah bjj guys might have taken the gi off for a vale tudo fight, but thats it."
You are forgetting one simple but very important thing: Back then BJJ guys did nothing but train for Vale Tudo. There were no sport BJJ competitions etc. at all. What you call no go has been EXTREMELY IMPORTANT part of BJJ curriculum and training from get to go. This is a clear fact.
"Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu with WITH the gi, not without."
That is just silly. It is like saying Judo is no longer judo if you take the gi off or that freestyle wrestling is no longer freestlyle wrestling if you do it wearing anything else than wrestling singlet. No offence meant.
"Igot repping Sombo in Abu Dhabi is like Wanderlie Silva repping BJJ in it, probably only worse."
Well you are right.
"There is no slamming a guy in your guard and no neck cranks (including can openers used to open the guard."
Slamming is allowed. regarding can openers etc. There are some moves and submissions that are just too risky and potentially result in too dangeround injury to be allowed. It is excatly the same as you have in Judo where some throws are banned, some grips are banned etc.
Following is just my personal opinion but can opener is just stupid low percentage move that manipulates neck which is way too risky anyway if you really think about which part of the body is being manipulated. Anyway can opener is allowed to open the guard but not as a submission in many SW competitions.
Now I kind of get what you say. You say there are bunch of techniques banned and maybe your point is that that's the reason why other styles dont do as well as BJJ. Well to my knowledge neck cranks etc. are banned everywhere regardless of the grappling style and competition. Whole point is moot anyway (no offence meant) It is like saying that BJJ guys would go and win all Judo gold medals if only they allowed all grips, TRUE unlimited ground time with no matte, all submissions etc. Unlike Judo and wrestling ADCC has disallowed and banned very insignificant amount of techniques. If you look at Judo, BJJ and Wrestling ADCC really does use rule set that is LEAST restrictive and allows everyone to use full spectrum of their skill set what their art teaches. It can not get more fair than that.
ADCC IS A SUBMISSION WRESTLING TOURNAMENT FOR ALL STYLES TO COMPETE IN. BJJ guys just happen to do well because frankly said BJJ rocks and is the best. Some people just seem to have problems admitting that fact.
NOW IF ADCC is NOT submission wrestling tournament for all styles then please tell me what excatly is? There is always some style out there that can come out and complain. for example should and small join manipulations be allowed to make it TRUE submission wrestling tournament for ALL styles including Chinese Wrestling that used lot of small joint manipulations? I hope you get my point.
ADCC uses most logical, fair, resonable and SAFE rules that allow all styles to compete for World Submission Wrestling Championship.Yes there are some moves banned due to them not being reasonable safe just like there are some moves banned from Judo and western wrestling.
BIG GUN IS CORRECT.
- "The entire point of competition is to expose the holes in your game, undoubtedly, if you are a Judo or wrestling master your hole will probably not be the throws, but if you are tapped out on the ground wouldn't you want to add some focus in that area, not changing the rules so your focus area gets you the win."
Well said Biggun. Problem comes down to ego. Judokas and wrestlers have big issues in admitting that there are any holes in their games and that they are not as good on the ground as BJJers are. Thing can be easily seen if you follow any discussion that handles this particular subject here on mma.tv. It is funny because BJJ guys have no problem in admitting that there is room for impprovement in their arts stand up game.
- "Anyway in the future, the champions will not come from Bjj. They will be people that comes from NoGi crosstraining (submission + wrestling). Is my humble opinion. Or not :-). What do you think?"
I don't know. Time will tell but as a BJJer I welcome the challenge and say. just bring it! :P
But if someone wants to learn FreeStyle, he only has to go to a FreeStyle class. If someone wants to learn and compete in Sambo, he only has to learn from a sambo 'certified' class. The same with Wrestling, Bjj, Grecoroman or Basketball. But .. where can i learn Submission for ADCC? :-)
The only time BJJ guys back in the day took off the gi was for vale tudo. There is no such thing as no gi bjj. I dont think anybody heard Helio say "Alright guys, mon wed and fri are gi nights, and tues and thurs are no gi nights"
Just because your still applying your techniques in a no gi situation, doesnt mean its still BJJ. Its like a tennis player playing raquetball. He may know how to swing proper and move the right way, but they are still different sports.
I get what your saying, but the bottem line is if you want to train BJJ, you put the gi on. If you want to take the gi off, then you can do a little submission wrestling