"You all keep saying Shamrock would get easily destroyed, yet no one has mentioned who would do it in his weight class. Who are these guys Shamrock has no hope against? Half the guys in the weight class like Monson, Erickson, Robinson..."
I was thinking the same thing. Admittedly I haven't seen the last couple ADCC's but I don't recall any HW's that would "destroy" Shamrock. Any examples?
"You all keep saying Shamrock would get easily destroyed, yet no one has mentioned who would do it in his weight class"
Werdum, Pe de Pano,Monson would all beat him at heavy, if he went the weightclass down, Cacaraeco, Xande Ribiero, Roger Gracie, Rigan Machado, Sperry, Lister, Arona would all beat him as well
WOW! This thread took off more than I thought. Thanks for all the posts.I havent been on the forum for a while but I'll adress some of the arguments on this thread.
Ken,s Leg submissions- I never said he has the BEST leglocks, but he is clearly very good at them. He has broken his share of legs including the most wicked leg lock I'v ever seen. He completly turned a guys foot the wrong way in a Pancrase fight. Whoever thinks Ken's leglocks are weak is not talking about planet Earth!!
Ken-Tito- NFL players with torn ACLs miss entire seasons..but the knee wasn't a HUGE factor?? Give me a break!!
Ken's wrestling- Ken has demonstrated his wrestling against bigger more acomplished wrestlers like Severn and Fujita.
Kens guard- Was not effective in the Tito fight although he did escape the bottom position. I have a bad left knee, and on one of it,s more sore days working the guard does put pressure on it and it,s no torn acl. Ken may not bee very offensive from his back but a healthy Ken Shamrock would be hard to keep there.
Kens Strength- Only the strongest of HW's like Kerr can claim to be any stronger.Ken is like an animal from anything I'v ever read or heard.
Bottom line- Ken is smart and experienced.If he chose to compete in ADCC he would adapt his training. His wrestling and takedown defence alone would be a huge plus.
I never said he would dominate or go undefeted. I said Ken would be a FORCE. I have yet to hear a convincing argument to make me doupt that. Of course it is Speculation, but so are most of these threads.I would call it EDUCATED SPECULATION to say that Ken Shamrock would do well in ADCC.
onepunchJD,
I agree with practically everything you said.
OnepunchJD - good breakdown of all the important points. As I've said above, there is no evidence Ken would not be a force in the HW division. NO one over 200 pounds has shown a significant "overall grappling" (submission plus wrestling, plus strength, etc.) skill advantage in the HW division over Shamrock. Of course we haven't seen Ken in pure "grappling" events where he can't pound his opponents into oblivion to negate their submissions, like the horrific beating he handed Brian Johnson. And this lack of striking is relevant to the invientor of G&P but does not count Ken out.
With the ACL repaired, who knows how far Shammy can go in the UFC HW division. Arlovski is his only real obstacle. Ken would make quick work of Tim Sylvia, taking his lanky opponent down with ease then submitting him at will - he'd take advantage of the weak ground skill's Tim exposed in his pre-UFC fights. Mir would be a bigger challenge, similar skills as Ken. Similar, yes, but rookie level in MMA experience compared to a time-honored veteran like Ken. Mir's youth, athleticism and motivation to beat his childhood hero Ken would carry him for a round or two. But Ken would sytematically beat him down, like a father to a child, a beating with a lesson included for no charge. No, Mir and Slyvia would be Lion's food against Shamrock in MMA. Only Arlovski poses a challenge to Ken in the UFC HW run. We have less data to predict Ken's performance in ADCC, but there's been no convincing argument he'd fail.
Just bput Royce on the Mat with him and Royce will tap him out again!!! Remember ufc 1!!!!!!! he would get schooled in ADCC!
Kidding right?
he'd get tapped... or taken down and pointed...his wrestling is good, but not good enough for adcc, nor are his subs.
"Vitor hasnt won much in ADCC except for a few worked matches in 2001."
What matches are you talking about and why do you think this?
opens bottle of Lucky Lager, turns up Iron Maiden's "Killers"
I kinda slipped up on that remark. The thing is that in ADCC 2001, alot of the matches in the absolutes were rumored to be works so that the finals would end up being JJ Machado and Arona to decide who would fight Kerr in the next tourny's superfight. I just heard this so it might not be true. I thought Vitor participated in alot of those works but I got confused. Watching the tourny again, Vitor did look really good against Ricco.
Ken Shamrock was always one of my least favorite fighters. Having said that, I'd love to see him in ADCC and think he might fare pretty well . . . especially if he planned to go enough in advance to be able to adequately train for the rules.
"" FlyingTriangle ""
Yeah, like Royce tapped him in the rematch...oh wait, Royce got his face smashed in that one!
Not really Kens best performance, but he proved he could avoid Royces Gi submissions while doing damage. Royce without a Gi has even less of a chance. I and others have posted on this topic on many other threads so I wont go into more obvious details about the Gi.
Thanks for the intelligent posts guys! Its refreshing to read opposing arguments without the mindless prejudice.
BTW- I'm a big fan of Royce as well.
I think El Guapo has made some really good points in this thread.
onepunchJD also has pointed out some valid points as well.
I don't think that Ken Shamrock is the "most dangerous man", but he would definitely hold his own in ADCC.
Some of the Lions Den guys entered ADCC before...which year was that? I remember that they didn't do very well.
I also remember many interviews where Lions Den guys talk about how Ken Shamrock often kicks their ass on the mats.
I think that Tra Telligman is really skilled at leg locks. did Tra ever enter ADCC? Is that the time when wrecked Ricardo Morais' knee with a heel hook, but he lost on points? I think Ken is probably more well rounded than Tra.
Yes I remember watching Bohlander in ADCC. He lost but If I remember correctly it was to one of the best guys.
Was it Riberio?? SP??
I'm not at home so can't look it up right now.
Yes Ken would school LD's fighters on a regular basis, but they were his students.
I think the best grapplers of that group were Frank, and Guy IMO.
Frank maby being the only one to really get to Kens level in grappling. Many people say he passed Ken but I disagree. He was awsome all-around, and more comfortable from his back. But Frank was a different body type, and was never able to overcome Kens power and skills....from anything I'v ever read or heard.
Frank would also do well in ADCC IMO, but Ken is best bet from Lions Den.
ttt- see you tomorrow.
Right Shamrok, err... KKM, you got your point across alright.
I definitely think that Frank surpassed Ken in terms of skill over the years. Frank became open minded whenhe left the Lion's Den. That was great for him. Ken did the same, but many years later. Ken has improved as a fighter also since he has started training in other places (Eric Paulson).
"Ken has improved as a fighter also since he has started training in other places (Eric Paulson)."
I am neither a Ken Shamrock nut hugger nor troll, but on what do you base this statment? His Kimo fight?
Come on man that was stand up clinch work (at which he has always done well) and a single knee that ended the fight.