Ali/Frazier 1.5

Underground
1

Anybody seen this little gem?

Basically, both fighters are building up their rematch in an ABC Studio by commentating on their first fight.

Both are in the same studio with Cosell, seated together, with head-sets on. Ali's doing color commentating, and starts talking down to Joe in a "humorous" manner. Joe loses his cool and gets up and loses the headset.

Joe walks over to Ali, and is literally standing over him. Ali's looking and him, still seated, and saying, "sit down Joe, sit down." Then Ali's posse and Frazier's posse get in the mix. One of Ali's guys pull gently on Joe's arm telling him to sit down. Frazier turns and says "you want a piece of this too?"

Then Ali stands up and says "SIT DOWN JOE!!"

And then the action starts:

1) Ali puts Frazier in a half-plumb (as he's been known to do in his fights, most infamously against Chuvalo), then switches to guillotine.

2) Ali and Frazier shuffle a few steps of the studio stage...then Ali FLOPS to open guard, with what looks like HOOKS on the inside.

3) At this point, the posse is trying to pull them apart. Joe breaks free (or is pulled out) of the guillotine. He stands over Ali...with Ali's left foot tucked inside Frazier's right arm. At this point I'm yelling "FOOOOTLOOOCCCCKKK!!!" Frazier had no clue....so Ali KICKS him across the room. Frazier flies something like 6 feet.

At this point everyone regains control of the fighters, but Frazier looks ready to brawl! Ali's taunting, but he's still being held back.

This got me thinking: was this a CONDITIONED response in the fighters (i.e. someone taught them to fight this way), or was this an INSTINCTIVE response (they respond this way when fight/flight mechanism kicks in, no matter how they're trained).

1) IF we go with conditioned response, it made me wonder when Ali started training with LeBell, and how MUCH did LeBell really teach him?

2) IF we go with instinctive response...then what does that say about the conditioned response in these men (jab/cross/hook)? There are stories of the Gracies and SEALs who, even at the point of total unconsciousness, will respond the way they have been trained. Is that, then, a matter of mode of training (as w/ the SEALs), or is it a matter of the technique being a REFINEMENT of a conditioned response (e.g. flinch response to destruct or crazy monkey)?

I'd be VERY interested to hear people's opinion on this.

2

Cool stuff.

Where did you see this at?

3

i've seen that footage before ... i think its instinctual to use certain tactics at certain ranges - veven athletes conditioned to do the complete opposite will comply with that.

another good example (i think) is the Barklev/Arona match in ADCC (i forget what year) Karlev continually 'checks' the head of Arona, bordering on striking/slapping ... Arona loses his cool, loads up a huge haymaker Rick James slap across Barklev's face that sends him realing. at this point i would say that they're a good 10 feet from eachother but the russian throws what can only be described as a funky front kick and a one-two as Arona leans away and throws back and then people get between them and it gets broken up.

in both these cases, 2 strikers and 2 grapplers each losing their cool and going at it oustide the competitive arena. both ended up doing the opposite of what they compete in. Ironic yes, but i would also submit that (perhaps even subconciously) they realize the danger the other person poses in their given range, even though they are skilled in it as well, and out of a sense of survival choose to fight in the range where that threat is somewhat nullified. ex - Ali/Frazier in the clinch and ground - Barklev/Arona in punching and kicking range.

what do you guys think?

4

I agree with Christian