An Honest OG discussion: Russia vs Ukraine

By that same logic Putin could destroy London, New York or Berlin.

Whatever is stopping him could also stop that 1 guy who’d launch

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They would probably nuke each other before anyone else

First of all, who says the Axis wins? The most likely outcome would have been a stalemate and a negotiated peace. Neither side was able to gain advantage until the Americans stuck their nose in.

Second, even if the Axis won, why would that have been worse? Germany had been a responsible member of the world order prior to WW1, and has been a responsible member of the world order post-WW2. It’s just that 25 years in-between where they turned into genocidal shitheels. Maybe that 25 year period of monstrous behavior could have been avoided with a different result in WW1.

On that we can agree. Russia IMO had a reasonable moral argument for being in the right … up until they rolled tanks across the border. Once they did that, they were clearly in the wrong.

But how does a couple of dozen other countries declaring economic war and cranking out scads of war material for one side make things any better? Ukraine is now the most heavily armed country in the world. It’s also one of the most corrupt countries in the world. A large chunk of that war material has found it’s way to the black market and will haunt the west for decades to come. Meanwhile, the efforts to destabilize Russia have arguably destabilized the west even more than they did Russia. Commodity prices have skyrocketed, Russia has cozied up to the Chinese, a fissure has opened up between the west and the developing world over sanctions and banking practices (the weaponization of SWIFT), supply chains have been broken, etc.
Is Ukraine really worth all that?

Very true, but how often do regional wars stay within their boundaries. There is always spillover. Plus, ICBMs tend to make things a bit more complicated, as they can reach anywhere on the planet with the push of a button. That kind of power might be hard to resist if things start to go badly with their internecine wars.

A stalemate across the English Channel maybe

I think you remember your history incorrectly.

It punishes the aggressor. It sends a signal that warmongering won’t be tolerated. It costs the stressor much more than he thought it would.
It helps discourage the same thing in the future,.

How much ? What are your sources for this ?

The Chinese say a lot of nice things, but their actual support for Russia has been minimal

By Russia and the current situation? There have been supply chain issues since covd started

But he hasn’t. He’s been in power for a generation, and has mostly been a reasonable geopolitical leader. The next guy may not be.

Silly argument. That’s like saying Hitler wouldn’t do anything outrageous, because Kaiser Wilhelm was mostly reasonable. Different leaders have different temperaments and make different risk assessments. Hitler thought opening a two-front war with the Soviet Union was a reasonable risk. Tojo thought poking the American bear and trying to annex most of SE Asia and Oceania was a good idea. History is chock full of leaders who took, what in hindsight, look like insane risks.

Lol

It’s funny to see Democrats switch to a party that wants war and death like the RINOs while MAGA republicans want peace through strength and diplomacy.

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Reasonable?

Compared to his predecessors, yes.

Is he what the West wants running Russia?

No.

Not when you have the fear of NATO nukes destroying you.

Not when the people around you have the fear of being destroyed by NATO nukes

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Reasonable enough that Barry O and Hilldawg were looking to ‘reset’ relations with him. Putin was very reasonable until the the Maidan coup in Ukraine. He felt the west being UNreasonable by toppling the government of one of his neighbors because they were not sufficiently anti-Russian. That’s when NATO-Russian relations went sour. Everything that is happening now has it’s roots in Maidan.

Why should the west have a vote in who runs Russia?

Does Russia get a vote in who runs the west?

The entire world, well the people anyway, are sick and tired of prioritizing Ukraine over their own nations.

Especially those nations who are being told to ration electricity, heat, food and water.

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“Does Russia get a vote in who runs the west?”

Ask the liberals.

I work with people on daily basis that still think that Trump is a Russian agent. No joke.

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Chomsky is now considered a Russian shill and not welcome in Ukraine anymore

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Every admin has a strategy that is judged to work in the immediate sense and long term.

It’s a crapshoot because no one can tell the future

Every govt wants govts in other countries that is favorable to it or at least ignores it.

That’s the whole basis for international “diplomacy”

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I have it 19-19 headed into the third.