awesome article. voted up.
there was no mma before pankration, could it be because of ancient aliens?
ausgepicht -GCT - ausgepicht , even if the ancient greeks did practice MMA just like we practice it today, DOESN'T MEAN THAT MODERN DAY MMA OWES CREDIT TO THE ANCIENT GREEKS AND SPARTANS.OK, I gave you the benefit of the doubt in my first reply, but this second reply makes me lean towards trolling or my tongue-in-cheek comment about being off your meds, may actually be the truth. If you want to ignore every single one of my replies, that means you prefer barking over discussion. Good enough. Your choice.
It's quite simple, we'll say that the Greeks and Spartans did practice some form of MMA, and then there existed a period when they became completely irrelvant and forgotten, and then some thousands of years later some Asiatic or Brazillian devised up a form of martial arts WITHOUT having to look up ancient history. THUS, THERE IS NO REAL CONNECTION HERE, just your wishful thinking that modern MMA owes credit to these ancient greeks, who have suddenly come to life because of some goddamn pottery that could have been fabricated one way or another.
So, AGAIN , what's with the mentioning of the greeks? What does that have to do with ANYTHING? Remember, the greeks nor the Spartans didn't call it " MMA " , it's people like you that label what they did as " ancient MMA ". Again, there is no REAL connection here, just your wishful thinking.
o.k., I'll take the bait.
"The legitimate connections are ancient Greek annals, pottery and art."
Modern MMA , with the exception of some agents , don't mention the Greeks nor the Spartans. Gracie never mentioned them, nor did Maeda, nor did any other prominent martial arts agents. The Greeks haven't been given credit, yet there are some here that seek to give them credit for Modern MMA.
So what's the connection here? It's completely feasible that the simple concept of no-holds barred was developed in a novel fashion i.e. from scratch , in other words , no one had to read upon ancient history texts to draw up some inspiration in order to have such contests.
So why is it so marvelous and unimaginable that the Greeks held such contests? It's as if you've literally found a missing ancestor or something.
When it comes to Greeks , Spartans, and modern MMA, there is no connection-whatsoever. They wanted to have their fights with minimal rules and now so do we, and there's plenty of examples in between.
DoctorOctagonUK - Awesome close-up picture in the first post but worth mentioning that statue is of the Boxer of Quirinal, also known as the Terme Boxer, who was not a pankrationist.
I kind of like that statue, so got a little tattoo of it
Actually, from what i've read - they don't exactly know if he was a pankration fighter or a pugilist. Since the same 'cestae' (spelling?) on his hands, were also used by certain Pankration fighters. Especially around the region where that statue was found.
Cool tattoo btw, i've been looking for a replica statue somewhere.
GCT -ausgepicht -GCT - ausgepicht , even if the ancient greeks did practice MMA just like we practice it today, DOESN'T MEAN THAT MODERN DAY MMA OWES CREDIT TO THE ANCIENT GREEKS AND SPARTANS.OK, I gave you the benefit of the doubt in my first reply, but this second reply makes me lean towards trolling or my tongue-in-cheek comment about being off your meds, may actually be the truth. If you want to ignore every single one of my replies, that means you prefer barking over discussion. Good enough. Your choice.
It's quite simple, we'll say that the Greeks and Spartans did practice some form of MMA, and then there existed a period when they became completely irrelvant and forgotten, and then some thousands of years later some Asiatic or Brazillian devised up a form of martial arts WITHOUT having to look up ancient history. THUS, THERE IS NO REAL CONNECTION HERE, just your wishful thinking that modern MMA owes credit to these ancient greeks, who have suddenly come to life because of some goddamn pottery that could have been fabricated one way or another.
So, AGAIN , what's with the mentioning of the greeks? What does that have to do with ANYTHING? Remember, the greeks nor the Spartans didn't call it " MMA " , it's people like you that label what they did as " ancient MMA ". Again, there is no REAL connection here, just your wishful thinking.
o.k., I'll take the bait.
"The legitimate connections are ancient Greek annals, pottery and art."
Modern MMA , with the exception of some agents , don't mention the Greeks nor the Spartans. Gracie never mentioned them, nor did Maeda, nor did any other prominent martial arts agents. The Greeks haven't been given credit, yet there are some here that seek to give them credit for Modern MMA.
So what's the connection here? It's completely feasible that the simple concept of no-holds barred was developed in a novel fashion i.e. from scratch , in other words , no one had to read upon ancient history texts to draw up some inspiration in order to have such contests.
So why is it so marvelous and unimaginable that the Greeks held such contests? It's as if you've literally found a missing ancestor or something.
When it comes to Greeks , Spartans, and modern MMA, there is no connection-whatsoever. They wanted to have their fights with minimal rules and now so do we, and there's plenty of examples in between.
I think ausgepicht gave you most of the answers on the previous page. But just to chime in...
There is much more evidence than pottery and statues. There are vast, detailed descriptions of fights that occured during the ancient olympics over hundreds of years of Pankration fights.
They describe chokes (even triangles), takedowns, ground and pound and stand up. Most of these depictions come from very reliable sources and almost all are first hand accounts, the philosopher Plato being one of them.
My point however, is not that modern MMA is a direct descendant of Pankration. However, Pankration was the first mixed combative art that we know of that consisted of wrestling, boxing, kicks, and ground fighting.
Pankration fighters, many of them soldiers (Alexander the Greats army were trained in Pankration since childhood) - carried the art with them to India, Asia and the Middle east. These other continents developed their own local style of martial arts, with Pankration, wrestling and pugilism as their base.
Some of these new martial arts stayed true to their roots, but most of them became a far cry from the true no holds barred nature of ancient Pankration.
There is a poster here who wrote a thesis on ancient (as well as other older) unarmed combat systems. The guy is a gold mine of info and used to post some amazing threads.
i just think its interesting how these things are cyclical, they've happened before. Some iterations have changed and some have died out and likely been forgotten. pankration, jeet kun do, bartitsu etc-
probably one of the first things mankind ever figured out was how to choke somebody.
ferox13 - There is a poster here who wrote a thesis on ancient (as well as other older) unarmed combat systems. The guy is a gold mine of info and used to post some amazing threads.
Do you remember his SN? I am very interested in the subject and would love to read some new non-googled material.
unfilter - i just think its interesting how these things are cyclical, they've happened before. Some iterations have changed and some have died out and likely been forgotten. pankration, jeet kun do, bartitsu etc-
probably one of the first things mankind ever figured out was how to choke somebody.
I agree. Just imagine watching someone like Milos of Croton banging it out with rules that would make even a old school vale tudo fan cringe.
i am a greek, so listen to me and stfu
j/k
truth is, there is no connection between pankration and mma
todays martial art "pankration" is supposed to be a revival of the ancient m/a and this revival is being achived through some statues and a dozen of pottery images
i dont believe that anyone thinks that this is possible
its nice to think that you are performing an art that was performed from ancient greek heroes,but unfortunately, there is no connection
gct is right although he sounds little angry
here is a fact as a bonus
ancinet greeks who performed boxing or pankration, when they were competing, if the opposite break his teeth, he swallowed them so he want give the satisfaction to the opposite
sry for my english,its not my first language
i tend to think that all martial arts probably started the same way. simple and brutal.
then, in a sort of arms race (unarmed race?) they add techniques becoming more baroque, ornate and complicated. eventually they became ritualized or formalized, or in some way become alienated from the actual 'combat' element, like, say, pro-wrestling.
then another generation plumbs the depth and starts all over again.
CaptainSlow - i am a greek, so listen to me and stfu
j/k
truth is, there is no connection between pankration and mma
todays martial art "pankration" is supposed to be a revival of the ancient m/a and this revival is being achived through some statues and a dozen of pottery images
i dont believe that anyone thinks that this is possible
its nice to think that you are performing an art that was performed from ancient greek heroes,but unfortunately, there is no connection
gct is right although he sounds little angry
here is a fact as a bonus
ancinet greeks who performed boxing or pankration, when they were competing, if the opposite break his teeth, he swallowed them so he want give the satisfaction to the opposite
sry for my english,its not my first language
I agree that the modern "revival" of Pankration is inaccurate. However, there are much more than pottery and statues, if one wants to know how Pankration matches played out.
If you study the subject, you will find lots of texts that describe exactly how they stood, how they fought standing up, what takedowns and locks were used and so on.
another bonus informatio?
you all have seen somewhere this motif
http://users.sch.gr/pchaloul/geometriki-epokhi/maiandros.JPG
there is almost at every ancient pottery or painting
even nowdays its commonly used as a decoration to many stuffs
well,this is called "maiandros" and it represents the strongest handle
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_g10EuyhODkQ/TDhcjYY0jWI/AAAAAAAABgc/d3iVE_ypig4/s1600/MEANDRIOS_LABH.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-mji5pARvoTg/Tlj0RUrIahI/AAAAAAAAAZA/oQhKTtlMym4/s1600/122.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Av2goqtc530/TPpo5A0NS4I/AAAAAAAAEwA/Q18-fzF8ihk/s1600/MEANDER2-HERKELES.jpg
CaptainSlow - another bonus informatio?
you all have seen somewhere this motif
there is almost at every ancient pottery or painting
even nowdays its commonly used as a decoration to many stuffs
well,this is called "maiandros" and it represents the strongest handle
that's some pretty awesome info- thanks captain!
The Persian Devil -ferox13 - There is a poster here who wrote a thesis on ancient (as well as other older) unarmed combat systems. The guy is a gold mine of info and used to post some amazing threads.
Do you remember his SN? I am very interested in the subject and would love to read some new non-googled material.
Just remember it was IBI - i think his speciality was the medieval but I think he knew lots about earlier warfare too. TrueFightScholar was another poster with loads of historical knowledge.
Some threads I found for you:
Pankration: Myth and Reality
Pankration, Greek wrestling...
Pankration: Myth and Reality
CaptainSlow - another bonus informatio?
you all have seen somewhere this motif
http://users.sch.gr/pchaloul/geometriki-epokhi/maiandros.JPG
there is almost at every ancient pottery or painting
even nowdays its commonly used as a decoration to many stuffs
well,this is called "maiandros" and it represents the strongest handle
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_g10EuyhODkQ/TDhcjYY0jWI/AAAAAAAABgc/d3iVE_ypig4/s1600/MEANDRIOS_LABH.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-mji5pARvoTg/Tlj0RUrIahI/AAAAAAAAAZA/oQhKTtlMym4/s1600/122.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Av2goqtc530/TPpo5A0NS4I/AAAAAAAAEwA/Q18-fzF8ihk/s1600/MEANDER2-HERKELES.jpg
That is awesome. I've seen the "maiandros" on several ancient persian tombs/pottery and so on, never knew there was such a distinct meaning behind it.
I am not surprised though, wrestling/fight sports were huge all over the world back then.
ferox13 - Some threads I found for you:
Pankration: Myth and Reality
Pankration, Greek wrestling...
Pankration: Myth and Reality
Well...Let's just say I am not doing anymore work today.
Thanks!
TTT for anyone with more info!
TrueFightScholar knows his shit. Does he still post?