Another BJ/BJJ doublestandard?

Just the best title i could think of but this is a bit of a continuation of David Camarillo's thread "How can Hughes lose to BJ?" which quotes Rickson in describing how time limits effect MMA bouts.

Here is the quote from Dave's thread:

Rickson Gracie: "I don't think the level of the athletes is sinking. I see the time of the fights as being diminished, that the athletic part of athletes is more and more involved with hard training, sometimes even steroids. So people become super-men, super-strong, super-aggressive, super- explosive, and all that energy added to the low time limit reduces the need of showing technique.

You have to be a bull, to get in there and win with your horns, not with your mind. So this natural development of the sport lets technique to be left aside a little bit. This makes fighters level themselves down, because the sport no longer demands them to pay attention to detail.

If you take off the gi and go into a five minute bout where you can use all your strength at once, nonstop...; Why even bother about detail, technical carefulness? What you need are muscles! Besides, all styles got mixed up, there is no more style versus style, the athlete has a basic notion of how to defend because, in general, defending is a lot easier than attacking, so all you have to do is explode and resist for five minutes.

So most fight finales nowadays end up being sudden knockouts. You don't see as often a technique, a triangle, a back-taking. It all becomes sort of void of technique."

I'd like to copy/paste my 2 posts on that page but just wanted to see what everyone thought of the seeming irony or double standard of those who supported that arguement and now also seem to be saying that BJ was the better fighter "when they were fresh" or whatever. Or that BJ "dominated" Hughes in the first 2 rounds when they were at even strength so to speak.

This is what keithwsII posted on that thread:

"I think the overall irony of this post and many others is, matt is considered a weaker fighter for using conditioning as his main weapon to defeat BJ.
Didn't the Gracies rely on this same strategy when there were no time limits.

Yet, people consider them more technical than their opponents eventhough their techniques were unable to come into play until their opponents fatiqued."

Is this not true?

And didnt Royce used to say something about dropping 2 guys off on an island and the difference between knowing someone will be back to pick them up in an hour or not pick them up at all until they were done fighting or something?

Well, maybe its just me but arent the same people who were behind that arguement also now saying that its really only a test to show your "technique" for the first 2 rounds or it all doesnt really count when 1 opponent tires?

So which one is it?

No time limits of just 2 rounds or however rounds BJ or the BJJ guy needs to get off first, fatigue or injuure then void the rest of what happens next?

My other post from Camarillo's thread and just to repeat, I dont completely disagree with Rickson's quote but....

"Athleticism, conditioning, etc is and has always been a part of sportss, esp. full contact, combat sports.
Besides, isnt 5 x 5 minute rounds quite sufficient to determine an outcome of an MMA fight?

In theory, i do agree the rounds takes away from a bit of the so-called purity of the game but can we imagine what the judging (not to mention spectator interest) would be like if there was just 1 15 or 25 minute round?

While i dont totally disagree with Rickson's posts, it is still one that is biased from his own BJJ perspective: "You don't see as often a technique, a triangle, a back-taking. It all becomes sort of void of technique."

Just like many bjj biased people on this forum, this kinda reeks of "if it aint 'bjj,' its shite" kind of mentality.

How is Chuck's patient eventual TKO of Jeremy Horn not a display of "technique."

How was Fedor's masterful MMA ring generalship performance against CC and Nog not "technique" on top of strategy exhibited?

We still see great bjj "technique" every time guys like BJ, Nog, Busta, Filho, Kang, Pequeno (aka BJJ guys that were able to evolve with the times, anyone?) etc compete. Was Hughes' armbar on GSP not good "technique" because it happened in the first round?

"so all you have to do is explode and resist for five minutes"

What about pulling guard and resisting for 20 minutes then attacking every once in a while?

"I do agree on BJ being the most technical fighter."

I dont think so, I think BJ may be the most talented but he just seems to just wing it a lot and a technical fighter is more methodical and meticulous and strategic and adaptive imo.

BJ is just as strong, explosive and naturally talented as manyu of the top fighters in there. He has aq lot of natural punching power too lets not forget. But somehow that never gets mentioned while Hughes has an unfair advantage because he is so strong (thats something he works hard on everyday too). "

Just for the record, as i just posted on camarillo's thread, i am not trying to imply that camarillo himself is implying this double standard.

Thanks was-b, now I have a headache! :)

yeah, well, it does hit on tons of shit, true! and yeah i spend too much time here but it just seems people here are like politicans like case where people will take any position to argue for "their cause."

Not being in shape and not having technique are both problems as one takes away from the other. When you gas, technique goes out the window. When you have little technique, you'll have to work many times harder during the match.

BJs sweep was actually a lot like how Hughes took down Royce - by taking the back by ducking under an elbow swing.

Im pretty sure ive trained both of those moves when you were still playing with your lightsabre.

What i meant was that BJ is so talented that he doesnt need to be methodical or strategically gameplaned (and if you think his gamplans arent lacking at times, you are in the minority, among non nutriding folk), he usu. can get to where he wants in quicker fashion than most.

Boring (hi yourfather)

Awwwww, the double standards......

I definitely agree with wasa but then again, it seems like we're the same guy.:)

btw: Enough with having a reasonable discussion in Camrillo's and Wasa's threads.

this is the underground and it's about time that someone call somebody else, a douchebag, Jackass, idiot, F*cking idiot, etc.

After all, this is a martial arts forum and that's how arguments and discussions have been settled during the past 8 years I've been posting.............

Uh, yeah, YF, or whoever you are, whatever fancy, wanna-be philosophical, first year university prance words you wanna use, it was just a simple comparison.

I just said it was similar, not the same, obviously one was done standing, one off the back but the movement is very similar if not the same: ducking under an elbow attempt and taking the back.

Seeing Hughes doing it as "mundane" only again shows the extreme bias coming out of your pores. At any rate, im sure the emotion coming from BJs loss is still devastating your bee jay jay soul so we'll continue to let your hissy fits slide...

Im not reading through all that shit... but the Rickson quote, just like all his quotes on here... is dead on correct

(funny, everyone bashes Rickson for not being in touch with modern MMA but every time someone post one his quotes its always right on)

Rickson's point is spot on, if there had not been a stopage and restart at the end of round 2, Hughes was in real trouble (even he admits that), however under modern MMA rules, the guy who has worked his way into a great position over the period of 5 mins has to start all over again. This of course favours stand-up fighters and increases knock-outs.

Submissions take time and learning sub defence is easier than learning to attack (see Royce Shamrock 2).

The game is very different from 10 years ago, the rules have caused a lot of this difference as has crosstraining.

What did Rickson say that is untrue?

FRAT

"if there had not been a stopage and restart at the end of round 2, Hughes was in real trouble (even he admits that)"

Hughes was in trouble for about a minute, but he was clearly out of the submission and had BJ off his back when the bell sounded. He was not saved by the bell.

"Hughes was in trouble for about a minute, but he was clearly out of the submission and had BJ off his back when the bell sounded. He was not saved by the bell."

LOL@this... he was in a full on revers triangle with his arm almost completely extended!?!?!

LOL@this... he was in a full on revers triangle with his arm almost completely extended!?!?!

You need to watch the fight again.

With just under ten seconds left, you can hear Couture saying repeatedly that Matt was about to pull out of the attempt, and he was right...... and at that point, the arm was no longer in danger. He was back to guard a second or two before the horn blew.

Hughes himself said in the post fight interview that he said a prayer and hoped for the bell because his arm was in trouble.

I'm making no excuses, under the rules Mat won fair and square. Just saying that Rickson makes valid points about the changes to the sport.

I didnt say i disagree with Ricksons quote completely but my point of this thread is the simple double standard that BJ and BJJ fans use when they argue about this round, no time limit thing and then flop and say BJ showed he was the better fighter when both guys were still "fresh." So basically we should either make fights NTL when the BJJ guy needs time to set up his subs or just make them 1 round as some guys tend to gas later in the fights so losing thereafter doesnt really count.

Hughes was out of the triangle/armbar by bell time, btw.

And where was the bjj anti rounds brigade when Nog was laid on his ass with CC all over him as the bell rang in that fight?

And where was the bjj anti rounds brigade when Nog was laid on his ass with CC all over him as the bell rang in that fight?

or when barnette had him kneebarred perfectly and he was saved by the bell. josh said he had it 100% and it was popping btw

"And where was the bjj anti rounds brigade when Nog was laid on his ass with CC all over him as the bell rang in that fight?

or when barnette had him kneebarred perfectly and he was saved by the bell. josh said he had it 100% and it was popping btw "

That was in Pride. It's different.