I'm interested in learning the art. Any coaches in the NYC area? THANKS!
Hey Jake!
Seems like catch coaches are few and far between. I know you don't endorse the Cecchine products, so I was wondering what you would suggest for the beginner who doesn't have access to a quality coach? Would it be better to get into Judo or a regular grappling school and then add catch later when you have the chance?
Also, do you think it's important for Catchwrestlers to have a base in freestyle wrestling or some other wrestling before taking up Catch?
Thanks,
SdcJ
Let me awnser this.
I started off in tma style that eventually made it's way into kyusho (shudders).
I than went to a bjj seminar I heard about on this board and started sub wrestling. I than began freestyle wrestling (which I have been doing for 5 or so months). I freestyl wrestle five days a week three hours a day. After buying Jake's Book Volume one, and having learned freestyle wrestling it all clicked. I suggest you learn Freestyle or Folkstyle wrestling and get a base in that and than learn the submissions afterwards.
Actually, I do think that the first two Cecchine tapes are decent, and the leg lock tapes too. I also think the Furey neckcrank video is decent too. What I don't endorse are the inflated credentials, the flame wars, and all that other silliness.
This is what I recommend, find some place to wrestle. I started my club here on Venice Beach on the grass with 3 guys. As the guys came on board we all pitched in to pay for some space in a small boxing gym, we'd meet Saturdays and some weeknights.
You have a TON of instructionals out there to learn from. Attend clinics and seminars to get the hands-on fine tuning you need. Then just get back there and wrestle and share what you know with the other guys.
If you wait for other people, it will never happen. That is how Scientific Wrestling came about.
If you want to do catch wrestling, then wrestle best two of three falls and try to submit or pin your opponent. Just be careful, get liability release waivers and some cheap insurance. It can be done.
Bottomline, just wrestle... (and have fun!)
Good answers, but lets not forget the original question. Anybody know of any coaches in the NYC area?
I think there was a club there at one time.
Im not a coach but I have been studying catch for about 5 years now. Its all about the wrestling. Where in NYC are you?
dennis5 You should just buy videotapes and find some good guys to roll with. That, and someone to teach you basic folkstyle/ freestyle if you haven't trained in it. That's what everyone else who "studies" catch in the Ny/Nj area does.
I am from NYC, and from all the sources I could ask ranging from Dragon King Press' Karl Stern to Dave Meltzer, nobody knows of any more instructors in the NYC area that teach Catch specifically, though James Maritato, "lil Guido Maritato"/"Nunzio" who was trained at the UWFi Dojo by Billy Robinson, once in a while, is given the OK by the WWE to do seminars on the basics of Pro Wrestling, which Catch has.
Are you in Manhatten? If you are then you can hit up the NYAC or the Twin Towers wrestling club. You see the problem with trying to learn catch is that you have very few examples to follow. Wrestlers should grapple like a wrestler sand unfortuneatly most they do not do this. They try to "patch up" their wrestling with subs and bottom game from BJJ, Sambo and Judo. Just like BJJers try the patch up their standup game with wrestling takedowns.
I am not advocating that crosstraining is bad. Hell, i do it everyday. But the fact im trying to point out is that most wrestlers arent grappling like they should( in submission tournies) They dont use rides, they forget about all the "potentially dangerous" holds from folkstyle(ie chicken wings, nelsons, headlocks, Guillotine(its not a f*&^ing twister). They go straight to their back instead of fighting from their stomach with wrist control, in sidemount they fight from their knees(this pisses me off more than anything i see wrestlers do in sub tournies)
You really dont have any examples to see how wrestlers IMO should fight with the exception of some Japanese fighters.
If you want to be a catch wrestler you should keep several things in mind.
-You should always be trying to hurt/punish and tire him out. Bust him up with you knuckles, forehead, elbows, etc. This will annoy him and open him up for submissions and give you more positional opprtunities. When you are in his sidemount get off your knees and make him feel every ounce of your weight.
-Dont be afraid of "bad positions". Control can be gained from almost every position. Think of Sakuraba vs Renzo. Renzo had the "superior position" but didnt have control and almost got his shoulder busted up. You should ALWAYS be attacking. He cannot attack if he is too busy defending. You can use "subs" to gain position. IE you are sidemounted and you put him in a double wristlock(kimura) and bridge him off. Dont be afraid to escape to standing position. If you are getting beat on the ground, get back to the even playing field, and beat him to the ground with throws, shots, trips, etc. Why try to pass the guard when you can beat it from your feet?
-Conditioning. You cannot be a catch wrestler without it. Trying to tire him out will tire you out a little bit. But he will feel it tenfold. Staying off your knees in sidemount and driving into him can be very taxing on you at first(very taxing when you are a novice), but he will be in so much more discomfort than you.
Think of catch wrestling as a streetfight without strikes. Not a methodical grappling match. There are no "cheap subs", and if you can tap him from standing, then do it.
2 things Cecchine said that could not be more true:
1) Your whole body is a weapon and his whole body is a target"
2) the hooks are just the icing on the cake.
My buddy Bruce Lee had told me once "its all wrestling" This is also 100% percent true.
There is so much more. Feel free to ask as many questions as you want.
Mike, what are your sources for statements like these??:
"You should ALWAYS be attacking. He cannot attack if he is too busy defending."
Sakuraba, probably the closest to pure a CACC wrestler we have yet seen in MMA, often takes his time, waiting for a proper opportunity to attack. He is not ALWAYS attacking.
"...in sidemount they fight from their knees(this pisses me off more than anything i see wrestlers do in sub tournies)"
Hm, Frank Gotch is fighting from his knees here:
...guess Frank Gotch pisses you off too? LOL
"Think of catch wrestling as a streetfight without strikes. Not a methodical grappling match."
NO. Catch wrestling is a set of rules from the late 19th and early 20th Century. Pins, submissions, no points, best 2 of three falls. It is a sport. A rough sport, but a sport nontheless.
Gouging is a different thing entirely. So is a street fight. Never seen guns, knives, bats, gangs, biting, etc in a catch match, ever. Please stop with the WWE silliness.
"2 things Cecchine said that could not be more true: 1) Your whole body is a weapon and his whole body is a target" 2) the hooks are just the icing on the cake."
It is this type of non-sensical rhetorical fluff we are hoping we to avoid here in the future. This sounds good in kung fu movies ok, but not here.
"-Conditioning. You cannot be a catch wrestler without it. Trying to tire him out will tire you out a little bit. But he will feel it tenfold."
Mike, now everything I have seen and been told would back this statement up 100%. Conditioning and catch go hand in hand...
Jake.....Is that sidemount?!?!? Read what i said.
That looks a hell of a lot like referee's position, no?
Attacking, in the way i was refering to it is fighting for control at all times, unless you are waiting for him to do something ie feinting as a setup"
"Gouging is a different thing entirely. So is a street fight. Never seen guns, knives, bats, gangs, biting, etc in a catch match, ever. Please stop with the WWE silliness."
HMMMM Folkstyle wrestling- power half nelson with elbow on the back of the neck.
Freesyle/Greco- Chin or forehead in the spine for gutwrench
Pinch/Bulgarian headlock with forehead in the jaw.
Judo/Sambo/BJJ- elbow in the ribs when setting up armbar.
These grapplers are WWE?
I was just gi choked tonight, with knuckles on my carotid(spelling?) artery. Seems like a gouge to me.
Streetfight mentality. Dont take me so literal. You should be trying to hurt him.
Catch as catch can= Catch any hold you can. Doesnt that mean catch any part of his body? Therefore his whole body is a target. This is not rhetoric. This is implied in the name of this form of wrestling.
"NO. Catch wrestling is a set of rules from the late 19th and early 20th Century. Pins, submissions, no points, best 2 of three falls. It is a sport. A rough sport, but a sport nontheless."
"Sakuraba, probably the closest to pure a CACC wrestler we have yet seen in MMA"
Ok so it isnt a style....just a ruleset...Yet it is Sakuraba's style?
"Think of catch wrestling as a streetfight without strikes. Not a methodical grappling match."
When I think of catch, I do think of a methodical grappling match, a la Ed Lewis' battle with Joe Stecher in 1916 (the struggle lasted five hours and 10 minutes and ended in a draw). Go figure... *shrugs
But when I hear "streetfight" I think of a streetfight. Eye gouges, fish hooks, boxing the ears, biting, etc. "Gouging" is a part of that tradition, Elliot Gorn describes it nicely in his book The Manly Art.
Actually, to be a nerd about it, I'd call the digging of knuckles, chins, knees, elbows, etc "rough & tumble" not "gouging". I am a pretty literal person.
I do admit I might have been a little salty in my reply, my bad. I just get annoyed with the over the top, loose, rhetoric used by some in martial arts circles to make thunder out of a fart. Please forgive me. (I think I may be a little gun happy from defending real catch from hackers and flamers.)
"Jake.....Is that sidemount?!?!? Read what i said. That looks a hell of a lot like referee's position, no? "
Actually it looks like he is setting up the inside toe-hold, not referee's position but I do get your point. It isn't "sidemount" (just to be clear, is that what BJJ people call crossbody?). But here's my point Mike,
...you can make someone carry your weight without taking your knees off the mat. Frank Shamrock showed me a cool trick that makes for a good blanket ride and is relatively easy to maintain. It is more efficient than burning energy that you don't have to. If your beef is guys that grapple and don't make the bottom man carry their weight, then we agree.
"Doesnt that mean catch any part of his body?"
Well I would venture to say that a referee in the old matches would disagree.
"You should be trying to hurt him."
I wholeheartedly agree.
However, I do think we will have to agree to disagree on the whole "target/ weapon" jargon. It still sounds like some cheesy 80s action movie jargon though, lol
IMO, Sakuraba's style is just that, Sakuraba's style. I said he is the closest. CACC is a set of rules. A catch wrestler trains under the rules of CACC.If I ever get around to moving so I have the room.
The problem in NYC is space. It is expensive.
Well Jake, in that picture he is driving into him even though he is on his knees. Yes my beef is with the grapplers who have their ass in the air allowing their opponent be comfortable. I should have explained my point better. When I say you should be trying to hurt him i mean causing him as much discomfort as you possibly can. If I remember correctly Wade Schalles mentions this in his legriding tape.
Now you disagree with the quote i sited. I had a feeling that mentioning it might not be a good idea, but since his name was already mentioned I figured that it would be acceptable. Im not here to promote him, or defend him, but when you say his leglock tapes are decent and Fujiwara's material is great, i cant help but laugh. Bias might have to do a little with that, no?
A streetfight without strikes would also mean none of the dirty stuff..Cmon even Steve Fraser said in the Greco syllabus that you should have a streetfight mentality. Are you gonna tell me that the old hookers grappled softly like a good portion of the sub grapplers in modern times? Didnt Karl Gotch recently say something along the lines that modern olympic wrestlers arent as tough as the ones he faced?
The quotes may sound like jargon but they are true. Catch wrestling is s%^& without wrestling ability and you can literally attack his whole body with all of your tools. I have seen pictures of the old time greats doing subs to the spine, jaw, shins, hips ribs,etc. Have we seen a lot of this in other grappling styles? Somewhat, but not to the extent that the hookers did. Dont be so bitter.
Bitter? LOL, just tired of being fed BS while being told it is whipped cream.
Other than the bitter comment, thank you for the thoughtful reply.
Let's move on. Why don't we get this thread back on track and help Dennis get a coach or get a club started now... :)
dennis, are your goals to compete, or just learn moves for curiosity's sake?
A wrestler, judoka, BJJ guy, or sambist cannot stay on one's toes driving forward all the time. Transitioning from position to position is essential while maintaining side control (i.e., yoko shiho gatanae to ksea gatame, to ushiro kesa gatame... Sometimes this means being on your knees. It's easy to get put in guard or lose control of the guy if you're always up on your toes.
Golden Arm (Toadstyle?) is correct. Having 4 pts on the ground instead of two (other than the arm you're half nelsoning or doing whatever with) is vital to set up certain transitions and subs.
Not looking to compete, just want to learn something new. I live in Brooklyn.
"A wrestler, judoka, BJJ guy, or sambist cannot stay on one's toes driving forward all the time. Transitioning from position to position is essential while maintaining side control (i.e., yoko shiho gatanae to ksea gatame, to ushiro kesa gatame... Sometimes this means being on your knees. It's easy to get put in guard or lose control of the guy if you're always up on your toes. "
Yea you cant be on your knees all the time. What i am ragging on is the static ass in the air crossbody. You can remain comfortable on the recieving end of this position as there isnt too much weight on your sternum. You should be on your toes most of the time and constantly moving and driving from different angles. This is why we do spin drills, so we can always be forcing our weight on them and keep our balance while searching for an oppourtinuty. Of course u will get put in gaurd if you arent moving and arent cautious of the space you are allowing.
"Golden Arm (Toadstyle?) is correct. Having 4 pts on the ground instead of two (other than the arm you're half nelsoning or doing whatever with) is vital to set up certain transitions and subs."
When doing nelsons they are usually broken down, being on your toes wouldnt be practical in this situation, he is lower than you and you are trying to tilt him , not make him carry your weight.
Hey Dennis since you are in Brooklyn, you can come by my wrestling club. Its on West 8th street and Ave S. The mat fee is 10 bucks, but well worth it. Its ran by Yuriy Velinsky who was the assistant coach for the Soviet Union's Greco team at the 76 and 80 Olympics. If you come by we would just work on the basics ie- bridging, hip heists, reversals, and some sub work. Do you have any grappling experience?