Hello Everyone,
As a practitioner of Sayoc Kali, and a long, long time thrower of many objects, I would like to chime in.
Yes, the Sayoc Fighting System does advocate the carry and use on multiple blade or other implements. This of course depends on the situation, on when and where you can and cannot carry particular items. Sometimes I can't carry my firearm, sometimes I can't carry my blades, but my Cross pens are always around!
As for projectile use, if you only have one weapon most of us would rather hold on to it for other uses, but as a method to gain entry it can be launched at an opponent. Projectiles are not all about sticking into an opponent, if I throw a blade hard and it doesn't stick in to an opponent it will still cause a reaction, and potentially wound or damage my opponent. Projectile use is just another option in a bank of tactics that Sayoc Kali practitioners use. But if you never practice it, you will never have the option or mental preparedness to implement it.
As for videos: I have many, many videos, and all of them have something you can glean from them. I recently finished James Keatings 2 volume coverage of the Riddle of Steel(I can't remember the exact title, it is available through Paladin and Century) it has alot of great drills and is packed with material. As a quick note, Tuhon Sayoc has recently finished the first volume in his upcoming Sayoc Kali series, it is being edited and will be available to members soon.
Train Hard, it is the Way!
Guro Steve
Kayan Isa Guro Sayoc Kali
Thanks all - and hey, i just today rec'd my Grover Combatives 3-tape set (couldn't watch it, but after work i will!) **grin** Coming soon are the Blauer tapes i ordered too. So much info, so little time! **happy sigh**
Thanks again for all the suggestions...
jp // san jose
as a FMA'er who has been around alot of folks in he game, i'd like to chime in - first off i've trained under guro dan inosanto, and tuhon leo gaje - both technical advisors for "surviving edged weapons" - i've done several seminars under GM giron (RIP), and tuhon bill mcgrath. i've done several seminars under tuhon chris sayoc, as well as taken several, several hour privates with him - so i have some frame of reference of what i speak.
first off on the books like confessions of a knife fighter and secert priso knife fighting techniques ect. - they'll get you killed - even articles on knife fighting/defense in knife mags are total bullshit.
i havent seen any of hocks stuff - however fma guy's whom i totally respect dont have good things to say about them -
ron balicki's defensive edge video's are by far the best fma and defensive video's on the market - tuhon bill mcgrath (pekiti tirsia) never gives anyone props - as a matter of fact he doesnt want any knife stuff out there (i think becuase he wants to have all the bizz) - and he gives only these hugh praises
the only prob i have with the tapes are they're defensive -
tuhon bill has great tapes too. they also have a little more offense. you must be a member of his assoc. to buy them
While the fma is often considered "the" system to study for knife fighting, it isn't the sole effective method of out there.
Having study Escrima,Arnis, and several other systems that include blade work, I would have to say that Hock's material is some of the best stuff I've seen and have no qualms about training in it or recommending it to others.
As far as I'm concerned, what other FMA "guys" have to say about Hockor other modern knife instructors, I take everything they say with a grain of salt. In today's day and age, too many people are out to discredit other people to further their own goals.
i havent seen any of hocks stuff - however fma guy's whom i totally respect dont have good things to say about them -That's interesting, especially since Hock has a background in FMA. What did these nameless folks have on their complaint list?
...update: rec'd the Grover videos - awesome approach! ..//watched 'em. Can't wait to watch them again, take notes, and then re-watch for the overal message. The beauty of having video tapes! (watch, rewind, pause, play, rewind, etc)
Coming next are my Tony Blauer tapes. I'll let you all know my HO...
Thanks again all,
jp // san jose
tfs -
that alot of hocks stuff woldnt work in real life w/anyone experience w/ a blade - that it'll get you killed - much like they way a TKD instructor would should you how to defend against knife w/ a x block - anyone w/any type of knowledge will slice and dice that guy -
just wanted to add to the list - cold steel knife company has put out a video series - alot of great info - but, you gotta sit through his "sales pitch" - to muh of the video content deals with him tring to get you to buy a cold steel product - if you can deal with alot of sales BS - once you get to the techs - theres great stuff in there
sreiter,tfs - that alot of hocks stuff woldnt work in real life w/anyone experience w/ a blade - that it'll get you killed - much like they way a TKD instructor would should you how to defend against knife w/ a x block - anyone w/any type of knowledge will slice and dice that guy -But you're not taking into account that not everyone one that may attack you on the street may be an "expert". You have to know how to deal with the untrained or inexperienced knife attacker too. To me, it sounds as though Hock is simply echoing George Silver's suggestion that, before allowing a swordsman the rank of master, he should fight a bout with three other masters, a bout with 3 untrained valiant men, and a bout with 3 men who are half-drunk. If he can beat them all, then he should be allowed the rank of master.TFS
tfs -
while i agree that not EVERYONE is going to be trained
a)i'd rather assume that everyone is, and train accordingly. i'd rather be train to combat someone who knows what their doing, and be that much more over qualified to face a untrained person, then to be under trained against a trained person.
b)watch the video "surviving edged weapons - it shows prisoners practicing knife techs in the prison yard - i think alot of thugs invent and practice their own styles and systems - just like a "tank abbout" - practiced street fighting and eventually it developed into a system -
all martial arts started off as just someone who knew how to fight quantifing and documenting stuff that work and stuff that didnt in their own fight experiences
Unbelievable.
"Hock's stuff wouldn't work in a REAL Fight?"
"Would only get you KILLED?"
If you don't like Hock, fine. If you like someone else, fine. But unless you have logged some street time, spent time on the stand as a court-recognized expert witness on the topic of knife assaults, have fought off someone armed with a knife, disarmed a live pistol as well as an axe... then I think you should confine your opinions to such topics as flow drills, footwork patterns and which training knife is the prettiest.
Mike Gillette
www.NLSI.net
Hey Chief!!
are you back for good moderating this forum? or just visiting?
sreiter,while i agree that not EVERYONE is going to be trained a)i'd rather assume that everyone is, and train accordingly. i'd rather be train to combat someone who knows what their doing, and be that much more over qualified to face a untrained person, then to be under trained against a trained person.Your rationale is flawed because you are assuming that training for dealing with other trained fighters will prepare you for facing untrained ones, and that is NOT necessarily the case. Untrained fighters can be just as dangerous as any other attacker--if only because they may do something unexpected, something never seen in the dojo--and that is why George Silver wrote about bouting against both trained AND untrained fighters, way back in 1599. But let Silver speak for himself:Of six chief causes, that many valiant men thinkthemselves by their practices to be skillful in theirweapons, are yet many times in their fights sorehurt, and many times slain by men of small skill or none at all......The fourth cause is, they are unacquainted out of what fight, or in what manner they are to answer the variable fight, and therefore because the variable fight is the most easy fight of all others, most commonly (they)do answer the variable fight with the variable fight, (at) which (they) ought never be but in the first distance, or with the short sword against the long, because if both or one of them shall happen to press, and that in due time of either side's fight be changed, the distance, by reason of the narrowness of space, is broken, the place is won and lost of both sides, then he that thrusts first, speeds (it home). If both happen to thrust together, they are both in danger. These things sometimes by true times, by change of fights, by chance are avoided.Silver is, in this case, talking about swordfighting, but the principles involved pertain to all weapons. Silver is essentially saying that a competent fighter must be able to cope with the "variable fight"--in other words, expect the unexpected. If proper distance is not maintained, then the fighter is in even greater danger, because he may encounter unfamiliar attacks--and it doesn't matter who is delivering the attack, for an "unskilled" attack can kill as easily as a "skilled" one if it lands. b)watch the video "surviving edged weapons - it shows prisoners practicing knife techs in the prison yard - i think alot of thugs invent and practice their own styles and systems - just like a "tank abbout" - practiced street fighting and eventually it developed into a system -All the more reason to train to deal with the widest possible variety of opponents and attacks, wouldn't you say? The fact that Hock is including techniques for use against attackers that may not me trained knife fighters is, as I already stated, simply evocative of the "variable fight" that Silver wrote about. Hock, contrary to what you and those you have mentioned claim, appears to offer a VERY comprehensive and effective system--combining FMA with military knife combatives from all over the globe, etc. He also addresses issues that seem to be avoided or ignored outright by many other knife "experts"--like how to use and defend against knives in groundfighting situations. I would have expected a former student of Renzo Gracie to appreciate such things. I also really think you should take a long hard look at what Mike Gillette posted: If you don't like Hock, fine. If you like someone else, fine. But unless you have logged some street time, spent time on the stand as a court-recognized expert witness on the topic of knife assaults, have fought off someone armed with a knife, disarmed a live pistol as well as an axe... then I think you should confine your opinions to such topics as flow drills, footwork patterns and which training knife is the prettiest.Respectfully,TFS
ttt
"Your rationale is flawed because you are assuming that training for dealing with other trained fighters will prepare you for facing untrained ones, and that is NOT necessarily the case. Untrained fighters can be just as dangerous as any other attacker--if only because they may do something unexpected, something never seen in the dojo--and that is why George Silver wrote about bouting against both trained AND untrained fighters, way back in 1599. But let Silver speak for himself:"
then why bother training at all? your rational is flawed in that by training to defend against people who know what their doing - your training for people who dont - i think royce proved that in his UFC victories - he beat lots of folks who werent trained grapplers - it's not like we're doing kata and only respond to specific, pre-set patterns - that's were sparing comes into play - learning to react - martial arts is taught by in large as self-defense - and as such - assumes your being attacked by people who dont have the same martial back-ground as you - your already train to deal with the wild cards
you missed the boat the about what i was talking about - my statement concerning prisoners training is that
1) they ARE trained in knife fighting techs
2)even if they arent studing a specific system - years of doing what they do - knowing what works - they've developed their own EFFECTIVE system of martial arts (knife fighting)
bruce lee said 1 street fight was = to 1 year of training
as far mikes post - -BWAAHHHH - "
unless you have logged some street time, spent time on the stand as a court-recognized expert witness on the topic of knife assaults, have fought off someone armed with a knife, disarmed a live pistol as well as an axe.."
just because he's marketed himself enough doesnt make him a expert - is micheal jackson the king of pop cause he sayes so -
i've seen tons of "so called, self professed" experts that dont know their ass from a hole in the ground - marc denny of DB "fame" - is a prime example - people not in the know think he invented escrima (or at least wrote the book on it) - anyone who ever trained with him know different - i could go on - but there's no reason -
as far as hock disarming a live gun and the rest - yea sure, and larry king was best friends with sandy cofax - he said so in his book - until someone asked the ball player who said he never met king -
i read hocks article on knife and gun self defense in maxim mag - he'll get you kill - for gun defense he suggests if the gun is against your head (a semi auto ) - press your head into the gun - while the basic of basic principles apply (a gun wont fire unless it is fully in battery ) - in practice that'll get you killed - the barrel extends past the slide - so your head wont move the slide - let alone the guys arm will move back as you push the gun with your head unless his arm and body are as rigid as a statue - i want to see him take a ax knife and loaded gun away before i believe him - even then - so what - i know several people who did won knife encounters on the street - the element of suprise - the fact the others werent willing to actually kill, ect. ect. are all contributing factors - oh yea - a lot of luck too
i guess TKD teachers who show a 'X' block to defend against knife attacks got it right then
sreiter,then why bother training at all?So let me get this straight--you're saying that one should train only for dealing with skilled opponents, but not the unskilled ones? Is there something wrong about training for both? your rational is flawed in that by training to defend against people who know what their doing - your training for people who dont - i think royce proved that in his UFC victories - he beat lots of folks who werent trained grapplers - it's not like we're doing kata and only respond to specific, pre-set patterns - that's were sparing comes into play - learning to react - martial arts is taught by in large as self-defense - and as such - assumes your being attacked by people who dont have the same martial back-ground as you - your already train to deal with the wild cardsNo offense, but your wording is somewhat difficult to decipher--I'm not even sure what you're saying in the first sentence. Are you claiming that my rationale is flawed (which would also include Hock's and George Silver's)--that training for both possiblities is somehow wrong?you missed the boat the about what i was talking about - my statement concerning prisoners training is that 1) they ARE trained in knife fighting techs 2)even if they arent studing a specific system - years of doing what they do - knowing what works - they've developed their own EFFECTIVE system of martial arts (knife fighting)I am well aware of those two points, nor did I ever contest them. Where is this coming from?!?! bruce lee said 1 street fight was = to 1 year of trainingClearly he was echoing George Silver as well!as far mikes post - -BWAAHHHH - "With all due respect, sreiter, that comment was rather juvenile and unprofessional. Mike Gillette made some excellent points, which you have chosen to dismiss by stating:just because he's marketed himself enough doesnt make him a expert - is micheal jackson the king of pop cause he sayes so -You always seem to bring up this thing about martial artists that you clearly don't like (for whatever reason), by complaining about how they "market" themselves. Case in point:i've seen tons of "so called, self professed" experts that dont know their ass from a hole in the ground - marc denny of DB "fame" - is a prime example -Please enlighten me to this man's supposed incompetence--you've whetted my appetite for some controversy...people not in the know think he invented escrima (or at least wrote the book on it)People "not in the know" probably don't even know what escrima is, let alone assuming that some modern fellow "invented" it.i could go on - but there's no reason -There you go again--always bringing up these "hints" as to why such-and-such an instructor supposedly sucks. If you felt it was inappropriate for the forum, you probably shouldn't have brought it up in the first place. i read hocks article on knife and gun self defense in maxim mag - he'll get you kill - for gun defense he suggests if the gun is against your head (a semi auto ) - press your head into the gun - while the basic of basic principles apply (a gun wont fire unless it is fully in battery ) - in practice that'll get you killed - the barrel extends past the slide - so your head wont move the slide - let alone the guys arm will move back as you push the gun with your head unless his arm and body are as rigid as a statue -I know next to nothing about gun defenses, and so I cannot comment on the above.[continued below]
[continued from above] i want to see him take a ax knife and loaded gun away before i believe him - even then - so what - i know several people who did won knife encounters on the street - the element of suprise - the fact the others werent willing to actually kill, ect. ect. are all contributing factors - oh yea - a lot of luck tooOffer us an alternative then--give us an instructor who meets with your approval. BTW, since your such an obvious expert on all of the above, how many attackers have you disarmed? I'm curious to hear some interesting and sobering anecdotes. i guess TKD teachers who show a 'X' block to defend against knife attacks got it right thenAh, such "rapier wit" on your part!TFS
sreiter -just because he's marketed himself enough doesnt make him a expert - is micheal jackson the king of pop cause he sayes so - - Just incase you don't know; Mike's opinions of Hock aren't based off of any "marketing" Hock might have done. Unlike you, he happens to know the man and what he (Hock) has accomplished.
i've seen tons of "so called, self professed" experts that dont know their ass from a hole in the ground - marc denny of DB "fame" - is a prime example - people not in the know think he invented escrima (or at least wrote the book on it) - anyone who ever trained with him know different - i could go on - but there's no reason - - As TFS stated, your hinting is a bit immature and tends to make you less than believeable. When it coms to Denny, I don't know of anyone that is going to think that a white guy living in CA, created a filipino martial art that is hundreds of years old.
i read hocks article on knife and gun self defense in maxim mag - he'll get you kill - I haven't read this article so i can't speak on its contents however......
press your head into the gun - while the basic of basic principles apply (a gun wont fire unless it is fully in battery ) - in practice that'll get you killed - the barrel extends past the slide - so your head wont move the slide - let alone the guys arm will move back as you push the gun with your head unless his arm and body are as rigid as a statue - This statement shows how little you know about firearms. Prior to posting I went out and tried to put several pistols (Glock 19, S&W 908, S&W 4046) out of battery by pressing my head into the barrel. Guess what? They all go out of battery once pressure is placed on the end of either the slide or the barrel (if it extends beyond the slide like on a G19). This was done with out the "statue pressure" that you state would be needed.
Is a "head against barrel" approach the most desirable method; probably not. I do see how it could be used though. IMO, it is a technique that would be used when a hostage taker is pressing the pistol against your head while behind you or in a similar location relative to you. By exerting some pressure on the barrel, the pistol could go out of battery and give you a split second to act if he was to try to put a round into your head. A normal person is going to stop for a breif second and wonder why his pistol didn't go bang. This pause is your moment to act. Its a desperate move, but despirate times call for disperate measures.
i know several people who did won knife encounters on the street - the element of suprise - the fact the others werent willing to actually kill, ect. ect. are all contributing factors - oh yea - a lot of luck too - Those thathave been in harms way know that luck plays a huge part in determing the outcome of a situation. I doubt you will see a single person say otherwise.
i guess TKD teachers who show a 'X' block to defend against knife attacks got it right then - This weak sarcastic comment does nothing but make you appear to be a reasonable person. Instead it makes you come across as immature and unable to soundly debate issues.
Chris
Wow, I did'nt know Marc Denny was a fraud. Here I've spent good money buying the Dog Brother videos and going to train with him. Seriously, If you have doubts as to the skill of Marc Denny, Come to the Gathering on 29 July. Watch or maybe you could join in and learn first hand what Marc Denny teaches. If you come, look me up. My name is Gerald Boggs.
gerald - i've fought in several gatherings -
i've also been marc denny's training partner at the I academy and spent all class tring to teach him the simple technique dan showed us and he couldnt get it - i also was his room mate at the 1st pekiti tirsia camp in the PI - marc was still working on the first tech we learnt 2 weeks later - he cant get it - 99% of the time in class marc doesnt even do the tech - he just does whatever strange thing he can, because he is too uncordinated -
the best example of his ineptitude is one day dan asks him to dummy for him while dan explained a tech - as is normal everyone gathers around in a circle to watch the tech - well as soon as marc steps in the middle - indepenantly - and all most on cue - EVERYONE scatters - like roaches when the lights go on - EVERY know his wild, uncontrolled swinging - and no one wanted to get hit by his stray swinging -
buying the videos is a good investment - top dog is the mad - which is why he did all the teaching and demonstrating - taking lessons from marc is a waist of money - the only thing marc ha going for him was a ggod fighter - but give a ape a club and he'll do very well too - i havent even picked up a stick in 3 years, as i've been concentrateing on BJJ - i'd still go against marc -
TFS -
"So let me get this straight--you're saying that one should train only for dealing with skilled opponents, but not the unskilled ones? Is there something wrong about training for both? "
your misunderstand what i wrote - my post : "by training to defend against people who know what they're doing - your training for people who dont - i think royce proved that in his UFC victories"
training for both the untrained and trained is very good -
your statement "But you're not taking into account that not everyone one that may attack you on the street may be an "expert". You have to know how to deal with the untrained or inexperienced knife attacker too" -
was in responce to my statement
"tfs - that alot of hocks stuff woldnt work in real life w/anyone experience w/ a blade "
this suggests to me that your defending his - so so techs. your saying that well his stuff isnt good enough to save your life if your attacked by someone knowledgable - but will work if the attacker is just some sloppy shmoe.
i just maintain good tech will work in either cse - and as such - i think your time is better served learn the more effective overall techs
again i keep going back to the techs I LEARNT as a tkd student - the sensei was a 4th dan and a POLICE OFFICER - knowing what i know now, the things i was taught will get me cut - by all but the most inexperienced fighter - should i use that tech hoping my attacker doesnt know what he's doing - or do i use better imo techs - that will in either case save my life -
cont
tfs -
"i am well aware of those two points, nor did I ever contest them. Where is this coming from?!?! "
it seems like you were contesting that here"
"b)watch the video "surviving edged weapons - it shows prisoners practicing knife techs in the prison yard - i think alot of thugs invent and practice their own styles and systems - just like a "tank abbout" - practiced street fighting and eventually it developed into a system -
All the more reason to train to deal with the widest possible variety of opponents and attacks, wouldn't you say? "
seems like your saying to train for the untrained [prison] fighter
"You always seem to bring up this thing about martial artists that you clearly don't like (for whatever reason), by complaining about how they "market" themselves. Case in point: "
actually i was thinking in terms of a even wider scope - do you think prosecuters actually know who's a expert in a given field - in some very small instances they might - more times then not, they'll do research - find who wrote books on the subject - well if he's published he must know what's he's talking about - and use him as a expert - then other's find out he's been used - or stll other times, the "expert" contacts da's and sayes - i've been used to testify and the case was won - i'm available to testify for you - BIG bussiness testifing in court - much more money to be made on a per day bases - then teaching could ever pull in - or in dr's cases - see patients all day (they get paid just to be on call - so they make cash while still seeing patients - lets take it a step further - the defense has there own experts who discredit the first expert - guess their not that expert after all - the experts used to say the earth is flat -
IN THE LAND OF THE BLIND, THE ONE EYED MAN IS KING.
cont