Anyone else tired of crying over grappling in MMA?

""MMA fans love grappling, they don't like stalling..."

- To add, I would say, in general, the general MMA fan does not like grappling because they think if a dude aint in mount and flying for an armlock within 60 seconds of hitting the mat is stalling.

Strikers get cut the slack for stalking their opponents, finding their range, slowly imposing their will on their opponent in the standup, but grappling is treated with way more impatience in the eyes of the general fan.

I totally am with the OP. Sick of this ADD shit.

"Are you talking about grappling with the intent to finish, or position with the intent to win?"

- Most fans cannot recognize the intent to finish with subs.

Wasa-B - You cannot expect Diego/Diaz in every grappling exchange though, that is the equivalent of Wand/Stann, that is the grappling equivalent of trading. Of course its awesome but they aint gonna happen all the time nor should it be expected all the time, just like grand slams dont happen all the time, just like hail run back kick off returns dont happen all the time, etc.....the expectations for action and entertainment are just too high.


this, Herb Dean's warnings are evidence of that and the standups that are getting faster and faster in Bellator.



 



There's a growing mandate against giving grapplers any time and it's guys like Guida in his recent crap that are with the unreasonable and drunk fans combining to do this.

I could not agree more with OP. This sport is supposed to be about seeing who is the best all around fighter.

I agree it can drag but if you don't want to get humped then train for it and knock him out.

Ive been watching this sport since UFC 1 and always felt that this sport evolves so fast that L'n'Pers will eventually not be able to rely on a one dimensional safe game just as straight BJJ players have been left behind.

At some point (soon) fighters will all be so trained and well rounded that as strong as wrestling is as a base, it just won't be enough...but the sport has to get there... Phone Post

Herb Dean warned a fighter IN MOUNT to work or get stood up. This is Herb Dean a veteran of over a 100 UFC's!

It can only be someone's marching orders making him change.

SZRoll - It's so ridiculous when people cry over fighters "humping" each other. If you don't appreciate the grappling aspect of martial arts then why are you watching MIXED MARTIAL ARTS?? Just go watch some Muay Thai or any other kickboxing.<br /><br />I can't believe people are bashing Okami for clinching up with Lombard. The guy is the size of an SUV and hit's like one. I thought the point of MMA was to watch two high level athletes (or martial artist) fight to win, not two people standing a couple feet apart waling on each other to see who has the better chin. Inside or outside of the cage NO ONE would stand in striking distance of Lombard. That's just suicidal.

No one is crying over grappling, they're bored and frustrates by stalling being rewarded. No one complains about submission attempts or transitions to set up ko/ tko gnp. Phone Post

ChaosOverkill - 


Herb Dean warned a fighter IN MOUNT to work or get stood up. This is Herb Dean a veteran of over a 100 UFC's!



It can only be someone's marching orders making him change.


People just expect that once you get mount, you should be reigning down like a retard and going Ronda right away. It doesnt happen like that, you can get bucked off and lose that position that you've worked so hard to get within a 5 min round that has standups.

SUBS NEED TO BE COOKED.

Sounds "elitist" maybe but people that know grappling know this. To take an example, Okami is good at getting mount, i would like to see him GNP more and harder and work more proactively for subs but he's simply not a power GNPer and not a dynamic sub guy, he takes time to set them up. He tried for a side choke iirc against Lombard, didnt get too far but he tried, most probably missed it whch is why its hard to talk about wanting to see guys with the intent to finish when its normally not recognized even when it is visibly attempted.

Oontyex - 
SZRoll - It's so ridiculous when people cry over fighters "humping" each other. If you don't appreciate the grappling aspect of martial arts then why are you watching MIXED MARTIAL ARTS?? Just go watch some Muay Thai or any other kickboxing.<br /><br />I can't believe people are bashing Okami for clinching up with Lombard. The guy is the size of an SUV and hit's like one. I thought the point of MMA was to watch two high level athletes (or martial artist) fight to win, not two people standing a couple feet apart waling on each other to see who has the better chin. Inside or outside of the cage NO ONE would stand in striking distance of Lombard. That's just suicidal.

No one is crying over grappling, they're bored and frustrates by stalling being rewarded. No one complains about submission attempts or transitions to set up ko/ tko gnp. Phone Post


Yes, they are. They get bored and frustrated if shit doesnt happen right away. People complain about guys not going for anything or attempting to finish the fight when they get mount or back mount and are visibly working for shit.

Wasa-B - "Are you talking about grappling with the intent to finish, or position with the intent to win?"

"MMA fans love grappling, they don't like stalling..."

"It's simple.Getting on top to avoid 'fighting' is boring.
High level grappling is awesome. Very different things. I don't hear people complain much about a high level, action packed grappling match."

"i love submissions and dudes raining elbows from the side or punches from the mount.

what i don't love is somebody sitting in guard and not even trying to pass because they "won the round with the takedown"

- The trouble is most fans think the subs can all happen like that when it hits the ground. With standups, grease, booing fans, the fear of getting cut, etc, subs take time to cook. Ever watch a BJJ match between 2 of the best in the world? Shit dont happen right away.

Yall (fans in general) are just too impatient, unrealistic and want to be entertained a bit too much too quickly. Like Rogan said in his latest podcast, guys like Fitch are a "reality" in this sport. Its almost a judo comp like mentality to the ground, nothing happens quickly, people boo and sling the ol LnP letters around.

The rounds are already only 5 min and there are standups AND often the guys on the bottom that want to stand back up are ALSO stalling waiting for a ref intervention. Shit is stacked against grapplers in modern MMA.

I don't think anyone is expecting subs to come easy. Bug it's 100% clear when a fighter isn't even trying. I'd never fault a fighter looking for the finish who couldn't get it, but damn its hard to celebrate guys not even looking for a finish Phone Post

Yes, i would dam well say most of the general fans expect subs to come and come fast and expect banging and bangin to happen fast. Why else do they boo so fast?

Its not clear a fighter isnt trying because most cannot recognize the nuances of sub setups and baits, etc and that it takes time. I get that we all want exciting fights, who doesnt? I just think the expectations and impatience for it is waaay too high and waaay too unrealistic for a sport.

Its similar to those who only tuned into boxing to see Tyson walk some over in a R1 or 2. They want action, a spectacle, a fight. Well, not all MMA fights are "fights," strategy is a part of fighting and part of sport. Just like all boxing matches are not fighting or brawling, boxing actually has boxing and boxing fans appreciate that. MMA fans do not really appreciate MMA as much.

If it isn't roc em soc em human robots with no footwork just banging it gets a lot of shit. Too many red mohawks IMO Phone Post

FinestScotch -
Seats Taken -  sprawling, shrimping, and escaping aren't that hard. Fighters train for a specific opponent if you know you're going to fight a grappler why don't strikers learn some escapes and TDD. Phone Post

Waiting for the vid of you repeatedly escaping Okami's top game and making it look easy.

Fuckin' armchair blackbelt.

Sounds like someone used to get held down and given noogies on the playground. Phone Post

SZRoll - Yeah thats true there is a difference between grappling and stalling.

This also means that the other fighter isn't as dominate and not able to remove themselves from the stalled position. Holding a guy down my not be as exciting, but they are still using their skills to impose their will upon their opponent. Personally I love watching every technical aspect of MMA. To lock up a professional fighter and hold them in any position, in my mind, is quite astounding. They are neutralizing the threat to avoid damage from a powerful foe.
You can't only blame the fighter that is holding you down, you must blame the fighter that can't get the fuck up!!! Phone Post

SZRoll - Yeah thats true there is a difference between grappling and stalling.

you ended your own thread.

2buff - 

MMA fans love grappling, they don't like stalling... Phone Post


it's really that simple...

SuperMann - 
SZRoll - Yeah thats true there is a difference between grappling and stalling.

This also means that the other fighter isn't as dominate and not able to remove themselves from the stalled position. Holding a guy down my not be as exciting, but they are still using their skills to impose their will upon their opponent. Personally I love watching every technical aspect of MMA. To lock up a professional fighter and hold them in any position, in my mind, is quite astounding. They are neutralizing the threat to avoid damage from a powerful foe.
You can't only blame the fighter that is holding you down, you must blame the fighter that can't get the fuck up!!! Phone Post



I know its fun to play the Devil's Advocate sometimes... but your taking this shit way to far. There is nothing technical or "astounding" about holding an opponent down in his guard while taking no risk for the duration of an entire round.



You can blame the fighter on bottom of stalling for tying up the arms and refusing to open their guard either to force a stand-up or simply run down the clock.



But when I fighter on bottom IS opening their guard, seeking sub. attempts, and/or giving their oppenent the oppurtunity to adavance the position, while their opponent still refuses to move pass half-guard or launch any significant offense in a timely manner, you have a situation where the fighter in guard is no longer fighting but stalling.

Huey Freeman - 
Wasa-B -
ChaosOverkill - 

Herb Dean warned a fighter IN MOUNT to work or get stood up. This is Herb Dean a veteran of over a 100 UFC's!

It can only be someone's marching orders making him change.


People just expect that once you get mount, you should be reigning down like a retard and going Ronda right away. It doesnt happen like that, you can get bucked off and lose that position that you've worked so hard to get within a 5 min round that has standups.

SUBS NEED TO BE COOKED.

Sounds "elitist" maybe but people that know grappling know this. To take an example, Okami is good at getting mount, i would like to see him GNP more and harder and work more proactively for subs but he's simply not a power GNPer and not a dynamic sub guy, he takes time to set them up. He tried for a side choke iirc against Lombard, didnt get too far but he tried, most probably missed it whch is why its hard to talk about wanting to see guys with the intent to finish when its normally not recognized even when it is visibly attempted.

How does someone like joe lauzon manage to remain exciting while going for subs?

I think you are underestimating the knowledge of a lot of fans, sure there are some who just want to see brawls but most can tell the difference.

Maia vs Fitch for instance, Maia constantly going for a sub but fitch's defence too good, that is to me a good competitive fight, then you see guida or schaub( who has admitted stalling to get a win).

Can you see the difference, not trying to be a dick but its obvious to me.

Maybe a lot of fans are so used to the stallers that they assume others are all doing the same but most educated fans can tell the difference. Phone Post


J-Lau is awesome but again, like a Diego/Diaz fight, is the exception, not the norm. Every grappler cannot be like him, that is why he is known as one of the most exciting grapplers in the UFC.

I would say most cannot tell the difference, you can, that's great but dont think you're the majority unfortunately. Im sure a lot of people found Maia/Fitch boring or that Maia wasnt going for anything.

CLINTK9 - 
Wasa-B - ""MMA fans love grappling, they don't like stalling..."

- To add, I would say, in general, the general MMA fan does not like grappling because they think if a dude aint in mount and flying for an armlock within 60 seconds of hitting the mat is stalling.

Strikers get cut the slack for stalking their opponents, finding their range, slowly imposing their will on their opponent in the standup, but grappling is treated with way more impatience in the eyes of the general fan.

I totally am with the OP. Sick of this ADD shit.

sorry guy, I was watching since day one. enjoyed those hour long grapling fests with Renzo/Royler in early pride. or the Royce/Saku technical battle. but Today there is soo much stalling and point fighting and fighting for a decision its almost unbearable. cards with 12 fights are consitantly getting at least 8-9 decisions per card. and watching alot of those fights put you to sleep. and make you not even want to watch fighting anymore. I agree there is a bit too much bitching about it, but thats because there are too many fighters and fights happening like that. regardless of the reason, that kind of fighting is not fun to watch and doesnt make fans want to pay money to watch it. I know perfectly well the difference between guys working on positons/subs, having time to cook the opponent and all that, and I know Stalling in a fight or fighting JUST for the decision or playing it safe because your "up on the cards" BS!

For sure its a different era now but 8-9 decisions out of 12 is simply a reality as is playing it safe cuz you're up on the cards. Its done with boxing, its done with kickboxing, its done in judo, its done in wreslting. Its stupid to put yourself at risk if you have a clear lead in the last round of a fight. That doesnt mean you still cant go for the finish or just stall it out but to really think any athlete or team will not play it more conservative when they have a clear lead at the end of the contest is a bit naive imo.

I think the state of the game is just fine. Sure more finishes would be great but i can just watch each of these cards just fine. Im more into the matchups between the top guys.

Grappling with intent to cause damage or apply subs = good.

Grappling with intent to hold other person as still as possible to run out the clock = sucks.

I love a technical ground battle with transitions and submission attempts, but sitting in someone's guard or pushing someone against the fence for a vast majority of the fight is killing the excitement of this sport. Same with moving backwards and barely engaging in the stand up. I completely understand elusiveness, but risk has to be taken in a fight, fighters can't simply wait for their opponent to strike first.