Approaches to learning and development

Underground BJJ Ground
1

So the topic of "how best to learn" is near and dear to me.  I read a lot about it, and I think about it constantly.  I pursue a really disparate variety of skills, so I'd like to make the best use of my time by "learning more effectively".

I've been reading "Intuition Pumps and Other Tools for Thinking" by Daniel Dennett (a philosopher who has done extensive work on the mind), and in this book he discusses 70-odd different mental tools.  Many of them are general ideas like Occam's Razor, a rule of thumb sometimes written "when all other things are equal, choose the simpler explanation".  

The VERY FIRST tool he discusses is so pertinent to BJJ that it got me thinking about whether we do it enough.  It's called "Making MIstakes", and it's exactly what it sounds like.  Sometimes the fastest way to find out how to do something is to do it wrong.  Mistakes in BJJ are so hugely valuable because of the feedback loop: the more colossal the mistake, the more devastating (and often instantaneous) the consequences.  

Mistakes are not just instructive, but MEMORABLE.  If you're anything like me, you turn your errors over and over again in your mind, until you've examined all the lessons to be learned and prepared to make the corrections for the future.

The flip side of this is something I think we struggle with as a BJJ community:  the real error, from our big picture, is to not make mistakes in training.  To be so conservative as to not venture, when there is doubt, is to miss an opportunity to learn and eliminate some of that mystery.  Some folks are so attached to the idea that training itself is competitive that they can't risk making mistakes.  It holds up progress to avoid these roads.  Go forth and learn!

 

FRAT version: stop being so competitive. make more mistakes. you'll learn more quickly. 

2

Fail fast, fail often is an Agile Methodology principle.

3

^^^ Indeedy. I was thinking about that too.  

4

For me it´s pretty simple fail a lot, play a lot. Think while you are training but more importantly stop thinking while you are rolling / Performing.....

5

twinkletoesCT - 


So the topic of "how best to learn" is near and dear to me.  I read a lot about it, and I think about it constantly.  I pursue a really disparate variety of skills, so I'd like to make the best use of my time by "learning more effectively".



I've been reading "Intuition Pumps and Other Tools for Thinking" by Daniel Dennett (a philosopher who has done extensive work on the mind), and in this book he discusses 70-odd different mental tools.  Many of them are general ideas like Occam's Razor, a rule of thumb sometimes written "when all other things are equal, choose the simpler explanation".  



The VERY FIRST tool he discusses is so pertinent to BJJ that it got me thinking about whether we do it enough.  It's called "Making MIstakes", and it's exactly what it sounds like.  Sometimes the fastest way to find out how to do something is to do it wrong.  Mistakes in BJJ are so hugely valuable because of the feedback loop: the more colossal the mistake, the more devastating (and often instantaneous) the consequences.  



Mistakes are not just instructive, but MEMORABLE.  If you're anything like me, you turn your errors over and over again in your mind, until you've examined all the lessons to be learned and prepared to make the corrections for the future.



The flip side of this is something I think we struggle with as a BJJ community:  the real error, from our big picture, is to not make mistakes in training.  To be so conservative as to not venture, when there is doubt, is to miss an opportunity to learn and eliminate some of that mystery.  Some folks are so attached to the idea that training itself is competitive that they can't risk making mistakes.  It holds up progress to avoid these roads.  Go forth and learn!



 



FRAT version: stop being so competitive. make more mistakes. you'll learn more quickly. 


Story time...

I was taking a figure painting class. The model was in the middle of the studio with students' easels arranged in a circle around her. The professor would walk around the circle behind us, watching us paint.

Suddenly from directly behind me I heard him YELL "Stop! EVERYONE come over here please..."

I had made a technical error and he pointed it out to everyone and explained that it was terrible and showed how to avoid it. He was very very frank and direct about it. Not to be mean, but just to offer the bluntest criticism possible.

YOU BETTER BELIEVE I'VE NEVER MADE THAT MISTAKE EVER AGAIN - and I'm a MUCH better painter because of that teaching method.

6

Great story.

Something similar happened to me as a teen, shortly before my karate black belt exam.  

It ended with the instructor saying "and for the rest of his life, Chris will always do this correctly"  And I do.

7

Awesome thread. Phone Post 3.0

8

Great.... now a new book I need to read... thanks for ruining my weekend ha Phone Post 3.0

9

Here's another one, slightly reinterpreted for Martial Arts:

JOOTSING

To "joots" is to Jump Out Of The System.  Jootsing refers to the ability to take a step back and see what assumptions are baked into the system of thinking that's in place, in order to question them.  

In Martial Arts conversations this usually seems to be discussed in terms of awareness level.  As one grows within the arts, one is able to see a larger and larger picture, contunually redefining rules that were originally black & white generalities.  I often think that when peope discuss "lateral thinking" they're actually talking about this kind of broadening awareness.

Dennett points out that telling someone "to try jootsing"" to solve a problem isn't usually very useful, as it's a little too general a concept to simply apply.  With that said, it can be a valuable direction of thinking, when stymied.

10

Here's a JOOTSing example that I like to use:

When I present the Half Guard to lower belts, I like to start by talking about the positional hierarchy of BJJ. We all know that the top of the Mount is better than the bottom, and the bottom of the guard is better thant he top, because we are following the rule of "control the hips to control the fight".   So I like to pose the question: which is the superior position in the half guard?  

Then we talk about how half guard can favor either player, so another variable (besides controlling the hips) must be at work. We need to expand our awareness beyind the first system.

11

twinkletoesCT -


Here's another one, slightly reinterpreted for Martial Arts:



JOOTSING



To "joots" is to Jump Out Of The System.  Jootsing refers to the ability to take a step back and see what assumptions are baked into the system of thinking that's in place, in order to question them.  



In Martial Arts conversations this usually seems to be discussed in terms of awareness level.  As one grows within the arts, one is able to see a larger and larger picture, contunually redefining rules that were originally black & white generalities.  I often think that when peope discuss "lateral thinking" they're actually talking about this kind of broadening awareness.



Dennett points out that telling someone "to try jootsing"" to solve a problem isn't usually very useful, as it's a little too general a concept to simply apply.  With that said, it can be a valuable direction of thinking, when stymied.

A good tactic for making Jootsing less vague and general is to practice regularly outside of your art. I spend a lot of time in areas outside of Bjj (bouldering, circus arts, gymnastics, movement stuff) and I feel like this helps me see my Bjj teaching and practice a lot more clearly because I'm jumping out of the system and into another one. Comparison makes it easier to see what is going on imo. Phone Post 3.0

12


There is a lot about this type of subject (making mistakes and what kinds of mistakes you want to make. How to benefit from mistakes, etc..) in Nassim Taleb's book "Antifragile".



http://youtu.be/k4MhC5tcEv0

13

I think BJJ is not a mind game. It is not like chess where you have time to think and calculate it is much more instinktive. LIke Rickson said at one of his seminars: If I could give you one advice - Feel more and think less.

Of course it is important to understand the goals and ideas in BJJ but when it comes to expression in a fight the body has to do it out of feeling or instinct rather than analyzing it with the mind

I feel people forget often about their bodies the ability to feel and express are pretty much repressed these days but these qualities are exactly what gives a good BJJ performance substance.

So learning should be more learing with the body and less analyzing because at the end you want to perform good not understand what you should do and can´t doing it.....

14

Josh - good book addition, and I happen to agree about the outside activities.  I'll check out AntiFragile.

 

Bjorn - I can get down with "think less, feel more" but there still needs to be talk about how to get there. How do we train a body to be more effective at feeling?  And what is it trying to feel?

I think part of the tricky thing is this:  there's a difference between USING jiujitsu and DEVELOPING jiujitsu. They overlap, but they aren't the same action.  I don't want to spend time thinking when I USE jiujitsu but I need to think carefully about how I DEVELOP my jiujitsu.  No?

15

Another example from the book that seems to have an application here (again slightly reinterpreted):

WONDER TISSUE

When cognitive scientists & neurologists look at the brain, they understand how small processes work.  But we don't understand how BIG things work...how does a brain ultimately become a mind?  The temptation is to search for some kind of "wonder tissue" that magically bridges the gap.

Computers are a great comparison:  we know how small things work, and we know how to build them up to very complex things -- things that would seem impossible, except that we understand the progression and how the components work.  No "wonder tissue" is needed.  

 

In BJJ: I see this phenomenon in 2 places (and perhaps you see it in places I miss).  

1) People talk about how "so and so can just do that move in a way that nobody else can". Sometimes this approaches a type of "wonder tissue" type discussion.  Why should we believe that nobody else could train that move up tot the same level?  What magical training did so-and-so do, or what magical application does he or she employ?

2)  People also talk about top champions as though their development cannot be reproduced -- as though they have some magical quality to themselves that allowed them to become champs.  Now, certainly, there is a spectrum of aptitudes out there.  Some people will learn BJJ quickly, and others will take much longer. And that's fine.  

Not to jump the gun, but it often just seems the key ingredients in champions are (1) they avoid career ending injuries (2) they stay highly motivated -- they train long, hard hours and they don't burn out, and (3) in many cases, they seek out the best instruction.  

 

16

Josh Vogel - 


There is a lot about this type of subject (making mistakes and what kinds of mistakes you want to make. How to benefit from mistakes, etc..) in Nassim Taleb's book "Antifragile".



http://youtu.be/k4MhC5tcEv0



That dude doesn't look game.



Will not watch.

17

I think learning to feel is something pretty important in our todays society and it goes far deeper thant just the physical application. It is really rooted in our believe systems and the way we percieve our reality.

When you look in some old native cultures and you will find for example war dances or like in russian martial arts you have cossak dance and stuff like that. This activites where not just some primal rituals but they helped to create freedom and the ability to feel in the body. Let me share what I belive are some of the most important factors too feel. But remember even to talk about how to feel will not bring you closer to actually feel it so the most important thing is to try and play with it......

1. Relaxation and natural posture

I think this is one of the main reasons younger people learn faster BJJ than older people. There is not so much uncouncisous tension in the body of younger people. They have not so much postural problemes and the degree of freedom in their joints is much better than in older people. Don´t get me wrong muscular tension is also pretty important but it has to be concious muscular tension that is used by purpose. If you walk around with a body full of tension and postural problemes you will never be able to be precise and free because these tensions will work against your own movements. Many people drill like crazy to make cwertain techniques stronger  but I belive it would be much more effective to get rid of the limiting tension so technique will come much more naturally

2. Articulation of joints

That´s where the dance and movement stuff comes into play. In our civilized society we are sitting around for hours and we are used to work pretty much two dimensional. We move up and down and side to side in predictable patters controlled by our concious mind. This will lead to an movement amnesia we just forget how much more options to move we have and since we are not able to move 100% we create more complicated movements to overcome our deficit in joint articulation. In other words we are not aware of many movements because our body isn´t aware of his ability to articulate his joints in endless ways.

3. Plasticity

This is also pretty important and all the good guys in BJJ have it. Plasticity is the ability to being aware of the whole body while moving around. Bascially your body is connected and when you move your arm it will also effect your hips and feet and you are able to move around with this whole body awarness. Usually people have very good awarness in their arms since we are used to move a lot with them but when it comes to core and legs people don´t have much awarness and dexterity because they are more focused on their upper body. That´s why leglocks often are so difficult to defend we don´t have the same dexterity in our lower body like we have it in our upper body but we can change that by exploring more and more degrees of freedom in our legs, hips and spine.

4. Dexterity

Which is connected to plasticity. Good people can not only feel there whole body they can also keep this awarness and move through more or less challenging movements. Handstands, Head Stands, crazy guard passes are good expamples of this but there is a whole level of dexterity which is only happening in the small muscles and facia in the body which you can´t see from just watching.

5. Breathing

Breathing gives you not only relaxation of your mental attitude it also relaxes the core muscles and only if the core is relaxed you are able to coordinat your movements in a effecient and graceful way. If you don´t belive me just play piano or dance while holding your press it is possible but you will be not very good while doing it. The ability to coordinate breathing and movement at any speed is crucial to be able to use all the qualities I talked earlier about. You will not feel and articulate much if your breathing is restricted.

6. Quite mind

That is pretty important but also difficult. I belive the real "magic" only happens if you are able to quite your mind completly so your instinct and body can take over and just do his job. Thinking will always interfere with feeling especially in fast paced scenarios like fighting. You have to be able to get your mind our of your way to acess your ability to feel a 100%.

So what to do with all these qualities?

In my opinion you use these qualities to explore Jiu Jitsu. In my earlier days I wanted to learn all the details of a technique and I was happy to collect them and write them down and understanding them and knowing them but what missing was my ability to just applying them in the right moment.

Today I don´t care about details. I am not even looking for them. When I explore a new move or teach an old mocve I just use all my tools of feeling to explore and express the move. It´s funny because when I teach seminars people are so happy about all the details but honestly I don´t even know all the details before I just show the technique slowly and let my body show me all the details and then I point them out to my students. I just observe what my body is doing and then I articulate my information.

I don´t think this extreme way is for everyone but for me this is the main direction of my training. I am training the body to show me the secrets.

I belive for most people a combination of interlectual understanding and the ability to physical feel would be a great thing but since our society is already more focused of the interlectual side the feeling and expression thing is something we should maybe focus a little bit more

 

 

18

Love Dennett and Taleb both, so this thread is impressive to me :)

Year before last, I made note of every single black belt that I talked to over about a 9 month period mentioning the "fail faster" idea in one form or another. It's not a conspiracy, most of them didn't even know each other :).

I make sure to say this in the classes I lead to remind myself and my partners/students.

I also think one way to test your attitude on this is to visit other places and encounter new games and bodies. One big realization that I had in Ireland a couple years ago, which I wrote a note to myself so that I wouldn't forget, was that a lot of times the reason we are tempted to make excuses not to train or are bitching to ourselves about how we feel is because we think it will keep us from being at our "best".

If you wait around to be at your best, you will seldom train-but if you make a practice of putting yourself into uncomfortable and unfamiliar places then it's just another day at the office.

19

ttt

20

UGCTT_Fillthy -


anyone familiar with Mihaly Csikszentmihaly and his theories of flow states and learning?



http://www.edutopia.org/mihaly-csikszentmihalyi-motivating-people-learn



 



I'm going on Bonding Leave for a month starting this Friday, thinking about ordering his book "Application of Flow in Human Development and Education"  through the library and giving it a read.

I have read some of his work years ago. I got the most out of "Flow in sports" which he co-wrote with Susan Jackson

Flow in Sports: The keys to optimal experiences and performances https://www.amazon.com/dp/0880118768/ref=cm_sw_r_awd_N.RfxbS0SRJMK

They talk a lot about finding "flow" by balancing "challenge" with skill level in the right levels. Meaning finding that sweet spot where your skill level is pushed to the edge, but not to the point where it falls apart. It's been a while since I've read it, maybe time to check out again Phone Post 3.0