yes denomination is misspelled sorry
Are 'denominations', or 'sects' a Biblical concept, for Jews, and Christians?
yes denomination is misspelled sorry
Jews don't have denominations in the Christian sense. We are aware that different people applied the Bible differently (Talmud is full of the arguements) but Judaism has little dogma do its rarely been an issue.
martial_shadow - Jews don't have denominations in the Christian sense. We are aware that different people applied the Bible differently (Talmud is full of the arguements) but Judaism has little dogma do its rarely been an issue.
It would seem to me that anyone who differs with anyone else over any subject, would be it Jew or Christian, by definition would be a 'sect'. If you do not 'congregate' with each other over doctrine that is division. I don't know how anyone who differs over a doctrine can say they are 'unified' when they differ. That's a square, circle.
but that's Christian thinking. Here's an example- the follower of Rabbi Nachman of Breslov do certain rituals in certain fashions. The followers of the Haredi movement do similar rituals but with slight differences. I am quite secular and swing between Modern Orthodox and Renewalist in my applications. None of us will deny the Judaism of the other. We may pray together or not (more likely, I am visiting them) but we would never deny each others direct connection to Judaism and G-d. To my understanding, most Christian denoms say if you are not part of our denom- you're doing it wrong. This thinking is alien to Judaism.
"None of us will deny the Judaism of the other"
Just because you and other Jews may not, doesn't mean this is what God requires. Because its done, doesn't mean it's right. You may think its right, but who's will is more important yours or Gods?
You can't have the Judaism you want, for the sake of 'unity'. You have to do it like God says or why do it at all?
Its like my Christian bros who go to church on Sunday, when the bible specifically says its Friday night to Saturday.
At least Jews are consistent with that part.
You cant say you believe the ten commandments and just decided to change stuff because you don't want to do what the 'Jews' do. Which is the reason the sabbath is on Sunday for Christians, it was to 'Jewish', so they changed it without even asking God what He thinks. I hope I don't sound to condemning, I did the same thing for years until God opened my eyes.
Here are some verses that say how God requires it to be done...
Lev 26:15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, [but] that ye break my covenant:
Num 15:40 That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God.
Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
To say disagreements don't matter goes against the word of God. You MUST do all them the way God says, not way the world justifies doctrine disagreements. Which is, in effect saying 'ah, your ok, I'm ok'. I find that bogus.
In a perfect world we would all have perfect theology with Christ as the head of the church. Until then, we're doomed to have denominations.
CJJScout - In a perfect world we would all have perfect theology with Christ as the head of the church. Until then, we're doomed to have denominations.
Don't be so gloom and doom brother...
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Mar 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things [are] possible to him that believeth.
Mar 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men [it is] impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
Mar 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things [are] possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
I think if God is a reality a person wouldn't need theology at all.
Ramses II - I think if God is a reality a person wouldn't need theology at all.
What makes you think God is a person?
we're made in his image
^But if Jewish people are so firmly rooted in Torah law....why do many practice, the Pulsa de Nura?
The Talmud relates how the angel Metatron was subjected to 60 pulsei de-nura for impertinence:
He [Elisha, while on an ecstatic journey through the heavenly palaces] saw that permission was granted to Metatron to sit and write down the merits of Israel. Said he: It is taught as a tradition that on high there is no sitting and no emulation, and no back, and no weariness. Perhaps, – God forfend! – there are two divinities! [Thereupon] they [the angels of discipline] led Metatron forth, and punished him with sixty fiery lashes, saying to him: Why didst thou not rise before him when thou didst see him? (Hagigah 15a)
Toelocku- so you believe that everyone from Abraham till now applied the law the exact same way regardless of time, place, education, understand and government intervention?
Here is the simplest example I can give. On the "Our Father" question thread I started, there is currently a discussion of placing Christians into categories based on their understanding of the Trinity, Unity, the Divinity of Jesus, and similar concepts. Clearly, this divides Christians into different groups- this type of thinking is not ofund in modern Judaism (outside of few hyper-right wing groups). It would not occur to 2 Jews to check compare themselves on how they relate to Shechina vs. the Ein Sof, its not even in our mindset.
To me this is one of the greatest quandries of the chrisitan faith. One does not adhere to the denomination without believing that it is God's denomination. It goes to show that man does not Know what God says for a surety down to the jot and tittle.
martial_shadow - Toelocku- so you believe that everyone from Abraham till now applied the law the exact same way regardless of time, place, education, understand and government intervention?
Of course not, God planned to hold people accountable for the amount of knowledge that He gave them. For instance ancient Polynesia's who lived before Abraham was ever born, will not be held to the same standard in terms of judgment.
Traditions added, and or subtracted lead to non-unity. So you get 'sects', like the Pharisee's, Sadducee, Essenes, Conservatives, Orthodox, Zealots, etc.
I would argue unity to be absolutely necessary, weather the disagreement be from the law or traditions.
But what does it matter if I apply the law like a Satmar Ashkenazi or a Sephardi or a Beni Israel or a Felasha? They are all Jews who all recognize the authority of the Bible. Whether you wrap your Tefillin clockwise or counter-clockwise is meaningless, as long as you wrap; G-d doesn't care if you light 1 shabbat candle, 2, 3 or a bonfire- so long as you light. These variations in tradition are meaningless and are simply related to the tradition in a specific place in a specific time. They do not add or detract from the tradition as a whole.
They do not add or detract from the tradition as a whole.
isn't this the way King David went about it?
"But what does it matter if I apply the law like a Satmar Ashkenazi or a Sephardi or a Beni Israel or a Felasha? They are all Jews who all recognize the authority of the Bible."
Having read the OT I would say the disunity in ancient Israel produced A LOT of problems. Take any story you want practically, see what disunity produces, and they were 'all' Jews who recognized the authority of the Bible.
"These variations in tradition are meaningless"
Do these meaningless variations produce separation in terms of worshiping together?
Are you saying that all the 'sects' of Judaism throughout history would have seen each other as fellow brothers unified, and not as heretics?
the last great debate about a group of Jews occured during the Babylonian exile and was about an early form of Karaitism. Since then, as long as Jews meet the minimum requirements (and since you will ask)
A) belief in One G-d who Created the Universe and knows all
B) Gave the Children of Israel the Bible at Sinai through Moses
C) Jewish mother
there is no question as to their Judaism. Then its a matter of degree in orthodoxy, that's all. Russian orthodox Jews practice one way, Indian conservative Jews another- its not a big shock. What's the problem. Different time, place, culture, government, level of learning and understanding.
And we all worship together in Jerusalem, especially on the high holy days- you can see vast sees of people rejoicing together in prayer.
The last time the term heretic was used seriously was Spinoza (late 1600s), who basically denied the divine origin of the Bible and said there was no free will. He was also a very public official and that is why the Rabbis of his time saw to it that 'we are not to associate' with him. Take that as you want it.