Atheopia

germany was heavily influenced by sort of an anti Christian humanism that had crept into their philosphy and engulfed their eugenics, and other movements...clearly not "Christian".

I think it's hard to call a nation "Christian". I don't know what the breakdown was in terms of denominational beliefs, but that's like claiming you are for the Iraq war because we are a "christian nation".

Or that I'm for it and we are a secularist society.

Hitler was into aryan mythology and was into the occult.

Atheopia would not have to enforce atheism by force.  They could have it in their constitution that if a person reaches adulthood and chooses to have a religion then they must leave the country.  It would be a tough rule, but it wouldn't have to be violent.



Also I see no reason why atheists wouldn't have a military to defend Atheopia against bloodthirsty theists.  I can't imagine why an atheist would be against military force for self-defense.   The point would not be a utopia but if atheism is progressive and enlightened then a country full of atheists should be the most progressive and enlightened compared to the rest of the world. 

I think atheists feel threatened by religion. I think they do have case in certain instances.

Agreed Hawker. Even I though am concerned about the momentum of the creationist movement, and the rise of Islam in the western world.

---"What if a large contingent of atheists put all their money together and bought up an island or chunk of land and made their own country with the main tenet that religion of any kind is forbidden to its citizens. "

Like others here, this is the problem I see with your question Ridgeback. Are you asking "what would a country run by atheists" look like? Or "what would a country run by atheists who hate religion and who would ban it" look like?

Well, I suppose the latter would possibly look like something under Stalin. But that's not a country that any atheist I know wishes to live in...including by the way guys like Richard Dawkins, who supports the right to religious belief.

Some atheists merely like the idea of a more consistent standard of public debate on ideas, one in which "faith" isn't given a get-out-of-discussion-free card.

But I know of no atheists, personally, who would want to ban religion. Freedom of ideas is as important a principle as any other I would hold to. So imagining a society that abandons that principle isn't that compelling. Except to condemn it.

Prof.

Good point. Islam scares the crap out of me. It is like it missed the enlightenment.

Prof.



But the point was this would be a purely voluntary society.  Things would get harder a few generations in, but at first it would just be people who wanted to live religion free.  The disagreements between different schools of atheism would be no different from any other society.  But it would seem like the absence of religion would allow for progress in many areas.  Or is religion absolutely necessary in terms of the glue of a culture?  Can atheists only exist as minorities in countries with a strong religious identity?  Many think Europe's move towards secularism, which should be something like the pinnacle of enlightenment from the atheist view, is the equivalent of cultural suicide. 



I didn't want this topic to get sidetracked into totalitarianism.  I don't see why that would have to go hand in hand with atheism.

"More Christians have been killed by atheists than any other group"

More atheists have been killed by christians then any other group.

"Give Sam Harris the kind of power Stalin had and watch what happens next."

Yeah, the 10% of the population is going to put the 80% of the population in camps.

Lol @ how cheesey the martyr complex of modern American christianity is.

  Can you cite some historical events where Christians killed avowed atheists and then show some comparisons with other groups that have killed atheists?  The only mass killing of atheists I can think of is when Christians were accused of atheism by Roman authorities.  Meanwhile, the numbers from the last century in communist countries put Christian deaths in the millions at the hands of avowed atheists. 



I don't know of any martyr complex in modern American Christianity except among those transplants from other countries that either lived under the thumb of the Soviets or Muslims.  Most American Christians are so far removed from real persecution they forget it even exists.   The words of Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins are strong enough to warrant the comment.  They simply lack the power to put their true feelings into action.

---"The disagreements between different schools of atheism would be no different from any other society."

Yes and no.

Yes I agree that a society being atheist hardly protects against schism and conflict.

But, again, lets not keep mixing up "atheist" with any particular view of society. Atheists hold different beliefs on the particulars of what a good society would look like. Remember, I am not one who says "If atheists ran the world, things would be better." As I don't think "atheism" per se supplies anything one could rely on for such propositions. One has to look at individual philosophies.

--- But it would seem like the absence of religion would allow for progress in many areas. "

Quite possible, so long as some other dogmatic thinking
does not take it's place to choke it off (see Stalin/Soviet Union for examples).

---"Or is religion absolutely necessary in terms of the glue of a culture?"

I don't know. I think it's still an open question. But it seems to me there is evidence that it is not necessary. For instance in small social groups such as my own (in which there seems to be no qualitative difference in my interactions with my atheist friends vs with my religious friends, whose views I don't share). And also on a macro scale - for instance there are heavily secular European nations that seem to be doing fine without appealing to religion to "hold things together."

Likewise, it's not like the preponderance of religion has held countries like the U.S.A. in harmony - there are great schisms, even among Christians.

It seems those religious countries with the most apparent "unity" are those under religious (virtually totalitarian) theocracy. And it doesn't seem either of us wants that, even at the expense of feeling "glued" together.

---"Can atheists only exist as minorities in countries with a strong religious identity? Many think Europe's move towards secularism, which should be something like the pinnacle of enlightenment from the atheist view, is the equivalent of cultural suicide."

Like...who?

Of course I would think someone who equates religion with culture would naturally conclude that throwing out the religion is throwing out the culture.

But that seems a rather narrow view of culture.

Prof.

"But the point was this would be a purely voluntary society. Things would get harder a few generations in, but at first it would just be people who wanted to live religion free."

If it was a truely free society then it would have to accept religion if it emerged. If people were deported when they became religious then it would be an authoritarian state, whether in the constitution or not. This would have to be enforced, so it wouldn't be a good place to live. Attempting to fence in a particular ideology is always doomed to failure I think, no matter what it is, from communism to christianity.

"the last thing I'm gonna do is spend a good portion of my waking hours obessing over it and interacting with those who do believe for the sole purpose of discussing my lack of belief. Seems like an enormous waste of time and energy."

Yet here we are, on a thread specifically devoted to atheism. So who's obessed? Both sides have their axe to grind.

Anyways, the modern martyr complex is just so lame.

The early christians had Rome and the Pagan hordes.

Today they only have Sam Harris and progressivism.

Maybe Muslims I guess.



  Can you cite some historical events where Christians killed avowed atheists and then show some comparisons with other groups that have killed atheists?



no, he can't