Attaching from guard bottom

Underground BJJ Ground
1

Let's say that you're playing guard bottom and you haven't got a single grip on your opponent. Maybe your opponent is standing, maybe he's kneeling (or in combat base).

Before you can DO anything to your opponent, you have to grab him somewhere or attach yourself to him somehow. But sometimes he's stubborn and won't let you do that.

So recently I've been copying the stratey of two of my gym's best purple belts: Sliding into half guard with the butterfly hook inserted (half butterfly guard) and simply working from there (maybe arm dragging him, maybe getting a solid underhook and then switching to full butterfly guard, maybe sweeping him over me, etc.).

It works well because it stops him from running around you like a crazy spaz and perhaps passing your guard just because you were a bit lazy (even though you might be better than him). You're attached to him and now you can start to work.

Is anyone here using a similar strategy?

Up until I started trying this, my strategy in the same scenario was to use the FULL butterfly guard. The only problem was that even though I wasn't crushed as much as from half butterfly, I found it much harder to attach myself to my opponents.

Any comments would be, like, really cool.

2

It's open guard. Meaning it's good strategy do attack. Meaning you constantly and actively go for grips first and then sweeps/subs. Or work the snapdown/tackles if the opponent backs away. Doesn't matter really which type of guard you use - it's a matter of preferance.

3

I use that guard all the time. I've got long legs, so I think just getting a piece of my foot on them is enough to prevent the pass in most cases. I also teach my students to stand and run around the legs immediately when open guard contact is broken. They are pretty good at that so this is something that slows them down. It also good to go into leg locks as well as some x guard inspired sweeps.

4

I do exactly the same. Pull 1/2 guard and then work the butterfly hook for the sweep or take the back...

5

LOL, that's EXACTLY what I do every single time I'm on my back. I use a combo of half guard and butterfly with 1 hook.

6

If anyone thinks this is a BAD strategy, please chime in. Otherwise I'm starting to think that everyone and their mother does it.

7

ALSO, if anyone likes the "knee-across" half guard (i.e. where you put your outside knee in his hip or chest) BETTER than the half butterfly guard, vote here!

(I like the knee across half guard more than the half butterfly guard, actually...)

8

I assume the context is starting from the knees during training. Because if the guy isn't putting any pressure on you, you can simply stand up.

9

I like the knee across half guard. I have fairly long legs, and it lets me stretch them out. I pick an arm, and from their I either get a sweep or an arm triangle when they try to prevent me from taking their back.

10

i prefer half-butterfly to other half-guard variations by far. all of my
training partners are at least 30lbs heavier than me (some over 100lbs)
and the butterfly hook has made the position a million times better.

11

"I assume the context is starting from the knees during training. Because if the guy isn't putting any pressure on you, you can simply stand up."

Exactly what I was gonna say. If your training partner is running from your guard, just go on top or stand up. I never fight for guard, anyway. It's better to play on top.

12

About the Z vs butterfly HG:

I don't like neither:) Sometimes use either.

13

i still stand by what i posted above, but i must admit that when I "pull"
guard from the knees, it's butterfly half now.

14

FRAT warning (but it's a good post, dammit...):

Interesting: I said in my first post that two of my gym's best purple belts used the half butterfly guard. Now, one of them said that recently he's using the knee across half guard more, just like me! Cool :)

(Actually the knee across half guard is sometimes called the Z guard so I think I'm going to start calling it that, with or without an overhook (which some guys like from there, but not me, so far).)

I was rolling against this guy an hour ago and changed my strategy a bit: To "attach" myself from guard bottom, I either slid right into Z guard, or grabbed his wrist or sleeve with one or both hands and put my foot on the same side on his hip, to work some basic open guard moves. (Z guard also worked against him standing, FYI.)

I felt that this worked MUCH better for me than to sit in the butterfly position like Marcelo Garcia, trying to get my butterfly hooks in place. For me, at least. And the purple belt told me that my half guard game was pretty good :)

We also did several rounds or "isolation" where he allowed me to start in the "oldschool" position, or very close to it and to my surprise, I found out that my game from there, which I had stupidly thrown away in search for something else (mostly open guard and butterfly guard), can even give very good purples like him a very hard time, IF he allows me to get that deep under him. I was shocked to find out that it wasn't until he was resisting like a MADMAN, competition-style, that he could SOMETIMES stop me from sweeping him - again, IF he allowed me to get deep under him.

I also found out, by thinking for myself (during working hours ;) ), a great way to get from Z guard to the oldschool position! I could always get Z guard and my oldschool sweep was strong, but I always had a hard time making the transition between the two. It was because I was "diving" underneath my opponent, leading with the wrong hand. My original way was to remove the knee in the chest and dive for that underhook, then try to grab his free foot with my other arm for oldschool. What would happen is that before I got my underhook deep enough, I got squashed with a shallow underhook - not good.

But a MUCH better way is to do it very similar to how Saulo Ribeiro teaches it on his instructionals: FIRST dive with your non-underhooking arm to either grab his free foot or underhook his leg. THEN (AFTER you've gotten underneath his stomach) you take out the knee in the chest and pummel for the underhook (very low around his thigh, actually) ... and work for the oldschool sweep or related sweeps.

Cheers,

jonpall.

15

"But a MUCH better way is to do it very similar to how Saulo Ribeiro teaches it on his instructionals: FIRST dive with your non-underhooking arm to either grab his free foot or underhook his leg. THEN (AFTER you've gotten underneath his stomach) you take out the knee in the chest and pummel for the underhook (very low around his thigh, actually) ... and work for the oldschool sweep or related sweeps."

BEST info I've gotten on here in a long time. I play a lot of z-guard and have a fair oldschool sweep, and I had also been sliding into z-guard then diving for the underhook, but I was getting shut down, even by whitebelts. I'm looking forward to trying this! Thanks jonpall!

16

No problem, my friend. Armed with this little trick, the two of us will be unstoppable!

(At least after a few years, right?)

;)

17

It sounds like most people are assuming the other guy is on knees or combat base, rather than standing, b/c I don't really see a good movement into 1/2 butterly or esp. Z-guard when the other guy is standing (although Rigan Machado has a nice approach to going directly into a regular 1/2 guard).

To get "attached" to a guy and control his movement, so he can't pass guard, I like the de la riva...whether the guys standing or in combat base. That's part of what's nice about it. No matter whether he stands or drops to one knee, you can stick with various options of that one guard.

I have a guard progression in my mind and the 1/2 guard variations are further back (more defensive)....maybe I go into 1/2 guard if he starts passing my de la riva

18

Some good advice and thoughts in this thread! I am starting to focus on my half guard game.

I have been using the "z guard" to play half guard from the start, because it allows you to transition into effective positions and keep the weight off you. Rey Diogo's DVD on half guard has a ton of awesome moves from that position.

The half-butterfly is what I play when things have already gone wrong with my half guard, and I am flattened out with a crossface. It's the only game in town from that position. But I don't start out there.

I also want to learn the "shin guard" game, which is a great counter to the cross-knee/Margarita pass. It seems somewhat similar to the half butterfly.

19

"The half-butterfly is what I play when things have already gone wrong with my half guard, and I am flattened out with a crossface.....But I don't start out there."

...yup...for me, the 1/2 butterfly is further down the progression that the regular 1/2 guard. although a lot of people that I roll with prefer it to the regular 1/2 guard.

20

"It sounds like most people are assuming the other guy is on knees or
combat base, rather than standing, "

when i'm playing half-butterfly and have my preferred grips i actually
want my opponent to try and stand. it's much easier to sweep him at that
point if i've got my hook and grips. it's also very easy to transition into x-
guard or seated guard from there.

any variation of half-guard isn't really a position to just hang out in
(except for maybe with a lockdown), imo.