How do the Dog Brothers regulate shots to the leg? Are you folks not concerned about knee injuries?
And on a related subject, how do you regulate thrusting attacks?
i cant say any offical word - however when i faught - the only rule was be friends at the end - i dont think this has changed - meaning dont do anything to anyone that will make them go home w/less IQ points then what they came with. knees have always been fair game - one guy had he's knee fucked up and had to go to the hospital - i think it was broken - or torn.
phil (sled dog) - has a vicious thrust - i saw him lift a guy off the ground w/ a dbl handed thrust to the stomach
Thanks for that info, sir!
On that "ultimate 10" show on TLC they showed some footage of a gathering and they showed a guy take a brutal knee cap shot that "top dog" said split the guys knee cap( the bone, not the skin) ouch, thats going to leave a mark !
I wonder how badly one's mobility is limited after suffering an injury like that. Do these guys sign waivers before joining the group? I would think that they'd have to...
Steve is correct.
"no suing, no how, no way...be friends at the end of the day"
"stickfighting is dangerous. if you cannot fight without suing, then you should just watch."
i think those are exact quotes. they sign no waivers.
my friend got the new DB vid on combining stickwork and footwork. on it Crafty Dog discusses 3 types of knee attacks, Top Dog prefers a backhand to knee,Crafty a forehand, and Salty Dog a forehand and some variation thereof. so knees are fair game.
i recall the DB site had a tech sequence up where if i remember correctly, Sled Dog was in someone's guard, and he dos mano (2 handed) the stick virtually impaling his opponent! also this fight is on vid and i forgot which one, i think it was GATHERING OF THE PACK.
p.s. i did not fight at a Gathering (yet) nor am i a DB.
Thanks for the info, Stickgrappler--it's been a while since we chatted on the old UG--come join our discussions sometime!
work is bad, my mind is on looking for a job :-(
when i can i do lurk here. good stuff.
I know what you mean, bro. I start a new job on Monday, that I hope will be better than the last one.
Pay a visit to the History Forum when you can--always good talking with you.
Good to see you poking your head up, Stickgrappler. I'm going to start a stickfighting thread in your honor when I get a chance (plus I've got some bata stuff for TFS I need to post).
Thoughts on knee shots & thrusts-
One of my fondest memories is a seminar with "Top Dog" Eric Knaus, which I was lucky to attend since I understand he rarely does them. At the end of the seminar I was privileged to be allowed to "play" a little stickfighting. I had just started going full-contact and didn't have much experience. He was amazingly quick and had quite a reach. Needless to say, he scored a head and a knee shot on me, both times before I really even saw it coming, while all I got in was a hand shot or two. When he closed under a roof block, I saw he was going to do it and ripped out a huge forehand across the outside of his knee. It left a nice bloody-ish stripe across the side of his knee but it certainly didn't slow him down as he tackled me and got my back. He later said it was a good shot, but he recommended getting behind the knee more to hit the nerve to cause the leg to collapse. I've done a bit of stick sparring since and I've used both forehands and backhands to the knee without any injuries. I've also caught my share on the knee without anything more than pain involved. So it doesn't worry me, but I can see how the kneecap could break with a direct shot.
As far as thrusts, I've never had too much luck with a fencing-type thrust. 90 degree bent arm thrusts are pretty potent in close.
With singlestick, I think there is a better chance of using a thrust more effectively, and with the slightly larger and heavier stick, I can see where you would be more concerned about the knee shots.
Cool anecdote about your DB seminar experience.
As far as thrusts in the stickfighting context go, I agree that the bent-arm thrusts work well. A lot of times when Ye Lunatic and I bout at singlestick, we fight under the assumption that the sticks are swords, and that is where the longer-range, fencing-style, "within compass" (ie., with the blade in-line with the weapon-arm) thrusts become a definite threat. However, many singlestick thrusts are of the "out of compass" variety (ie., they are slightly hooking in nature, because they are not delivered with the stick in-line with the weapon-arm). These "out of compass" thrusts were commonly used in cut-and-thrust swordplay and rapier fighting, as part of the oblique attacks featured in those methods. I also believe that "imbroccatas" and "stoccatas" qualify as being "out of compass", as far as the positioning of the blade and arm are concerned. The "bent-arm" thrusts you describe are perhaps the most extreme version (position-wise) of "out of compass" thrusts. Ye Lunatic and I have found that all these types have their applications.
Can't wait for your stickfighting thread--especially the bata stuff.
at work, i'm ducking the bloodbath after we were taken over by another co. job search continues, they may not retain me after the 30 day transitional period :-(
looking forward to your stickfighting thread.
good luck in your new job
Thanks--and good luck with your search, bro.
thrusts are misunderstood in fma i believe - so to is the obinieco (sp?) - for another discussion - but the DB's feel its useless, and it is if you have on face protection - different story when done correct (as a old time filipino did to me - it was a s powerful as a forehand blow) - and when your head isnt protected by anything
for DB type stuff - really the only effective thrusts are 2 handed strikes - think of the stick as a m1 guarand rifle with a bayonet attached - then use the thrst like you would bayoneting someone. - also every effective in DB is if you wnat to cheat - use a sooncat (sp?) since it's a hooking motion, you could get behind someones fencing mask and rip up there face - and probally pull off their mask to boot.
DB - while closer to real stick fighting - is still very far from it - when you head and hands are fully exposed, it's a totally different ball game - i guarentee you wouldnt see people do the crash and bash when the chances of taking a full on power shot to the head - while fencing masks are more realist then the doce' pares helmets - they're still far from no head gear - they do offer a fair amout of protection
when no head gear is used - the thrust becomes much more effective - the sooncat's to the face and eye's - thrusts to the bridge of the nose - into the throat - ect. -
I believe it is spelled, "abanico". :-)
I have seen some DB videos where some of the fighters made nice use of single-handed thrusts, but obviously I can see the advantges of the "dos manos"-type thrust too. Again, these stick combats can be carried out in two ways--either as stickfights (where what you see is what you get), or as a preparation for swordfighting (where the thrusting deal becomes way more threatening).
You are totally correct in that standard 3-weapon fencing masks give a considerable amount of protection--far more so than kendo masks, which are a total joke, IMHO. Like you said, they are not as protective as the full-contact stickfighting masks, but still pretty good.
I also agree with the thrust being far more of a threat when there are no masks (as in a real fight).
"either as stickfights (where what you see is what you get), or as a preparation for swordfighting (where the thrusting deal becomes way more threatening). "
i totally agree - however i was speaking purely at the point of thrusts in a db style fight - as was the point of the thread -
i'm on the fence and see both arguments tht -
1: the stick is a stick and has it's own art form
2: the stick is just a training tool to subsitute for a sword, so you dont hurt your partner
re: hooking thrust - i think you mean "sungkiti" if i remember my terms correctly. that's the way i've seen it spelled most of the time. i did not really learn the sungkiti until i saw the late PG Sulite's single stick vids - vicious tech!
BTW, i know you do not teach FMA now nor practice it in favor of BJJ now, but back in your FMA days, how many DB Gatherings have you fought in? did you recommend it to your students? did you gain from the experience? if not specifically DB Gatherings, something similar to that level of contact? was it beneficial/detrimental?
i've also seen it spelled "abaniko" - the Filipino alphabet does not have "c" - so many times you will see words spelled with a "k" instead of a "c" e.g. eskrima/escrima.
"BTW, i know you do not teach FMA now nor practice it in favor of BJJ now, but back in your FMA days, how many DB Gatherings have you fought in? did you recommend it to your students? did you gain from the experience? if not specifically DB Gatherings, something similar to that level of contact? was it beneficial/detrimental?"
i dont remember if i fought in 2 or 3 gatherings - funny thing is i fought in them very early in my FMA career - the first one was only after 3 months experience - i personally didnt get better through this type of fighting - as compaired to a BJJ tourny, where the more you compete the better you get - the main thing i gained was knowing i had the balls to do it - and that i could take hard hits and keep fighting - which i think is valuable in any situation - if you've never been punched in the face, you dont know how to or even if you will react. i do recommened it to everyone - for the reason i described above - not really for FMA skills - but for general fighting skills - it's a way of sparring hard enough to get hurt - without long lasting effects - the only thing i dont like is the way mak denny profits from it - i would like to see him out of the equation
sreiter, I am curious what you mean by the Way Mark Denny profits from it, as latley I have been debating with myself over the martial arts for profit question.
thanks for the reply - i was thinking that type of environment would test one's skills AND chutzpah.