Attitudes: Ashida Medhi & Morris

Your threads are pretty interesting concerning the different attitudes of high ranking Judoka both old and new school. While there is no question in my mind that BJJ is it's own entity the real question is: How much of it is their own and how much came from Judo?

I've had the priviledge of meeting all of the Gentlemen mentioned at different Judo events and each one of them deserves respect for their accomplishments. All these meetings took place over 5 years ago so please don't ask me to prove anything.

I have heard from people that were very close to Jason that he was invited to "Workout" with one of the high ranking GJJers out of New Jersey around the time of the first UFC. And from what I was told he trashed the guy in both stand up and mat technique. This was all done behind closed doors so it's Jasons word against theirs and they (GJJers) flat out deny it. So go figure about additude.

Sensie Ashida was conducting a KATA seminar at a friends Dojo so I was invited. He didn't care for the IJF and their current standard, the USJA, BJJ, GJJ or anybody else proposing to call themselves JuJutsuka. when their techniques are based on Judo. That mans knowledge concerning KATA is tremendous. He showed us how Kano taught and practiced the Randori No Kata. And why it worked then, but doesn't work now.

From what I saw that day if he says BJJ stinks it does. That doesn't mean Judo is better. It just means from the standpoint of a guy that has "been there and done that" the standard of what is good today wouldn't have held up in the past.

I hosted a seminar with Sensei Medhi in 97 so I got to spend some non dojo time with him and his wife. She translated for him. He has quite a history and has trained some of the best Judoka in the world. (Including Okano his close and personal friend) He was the Olympic Coach for the Brazilian Judo team for quite some time and is considered to be one of the worlds best instructors.

Apparently he was also was also teaching the Brazilian tops BJJers Rixon being one of them. At the time I met him he had seperated himself from the BJJ scene because the clubs in Rio were becoming the American equivilent of street gangs. This high ranking Judoka's influence on BJJ technique is very current.

What most people don't realize is that in Brazil BJJ and Judo were practiced in the same Dojo's until very recently, and may still be for all I know.

So there you haveit attitudes and the reasons for them.

Good or bad I don't know.

Morris was an all american wrestler at Syracuse I believe. Combine that with good judo newaza and you know he will be tough on the mat. It is his tachiwaza that really stood out though. He is an awesome judoka.

My only gripe is with how one can say "bjj is judo" and "bjj stinks" in the same breath..

The ideas contradict eachother.

Other than that I agree,bjj has always been judo guys fighting to the tap...

Good point Cuester.

You may find the attitudes of men like Ashida/Kodokan 8th Dan, Medhi/Kodokan 8th Dan, my former Sensei a Kodokan 7th Dan and many other old time Judoka is pretty much the same. They are not really singling out BJJ. They are disappointed with recent developments in Judo as well. For that matter Medhi never said BJJ stunk, what he said was certain BJJers should be ashamed of themselves for misrepresenting the truth.

These old Judo guys are the end of an era. They have seen Judo go from no weight class open tournaments, with no time limits, very few rules and no referee decisions, with matches that involved intense battles of both Tachi-waza and Newaza, to the current standard of Koka Judo with hardly any Newaza and all its changes, cold war politics and rules.

In the old system of Judo, Newaza was just as good and just as valuable as Tachi-waza. And the Tachi-waza (IMHO) was a lot better than what you see today. It's not to take away the accomplishments of Jason Morris or the BJJers of today. But Judo was a very different game 40 years ago.

I remember one of my conversations with Sensei after he had seen Royces fight with Dan Severn. He was amazed that Royce, who was represented as one of BJJ's best, but still took 20 minutes to choke Severn with Sankaku-jime (a very popular Judo technique). So if you put things in perspective you can see how they can look at BJJ call it Judo and say it stinks.

From what I understand many Medhi was upset with many of the "leaders" of Bjj because the tend to leave him out of the picture in terms of how much he contributed to the development of Bjj.

Like I stated before Joe Moreira who trained with Medhi and Okano stated that there wasn't any difference between Bjj and Judo in terms of groundfighting. But this was twenty years ago.

m.g - This is the shortert post I have ever seen from
you. Still good though....


Very inetersting post. Thanks.


LOL!!! Yes, I do tend to pontificate.

I guess it is because I like MAs ALOT (particularly Bjj and Judo) and I spend alot of time practicing, studying, and reading (history, etc) about them.

I'm so FULL of info that I have a need to express it. And since there are so few people I know who like MA the way I do except on these forum, I express myself on them (the forums).

So thank God I guess for MA forums and for people who take time to read my "thesis papers".

I know how that feels m.g. LOL

Thanks for your post m.g. I tried to tell poeple this same story about Medhi back in 98 but all I got was trashed. It's good to hear that guys like Medhi are starting to get the recognition they deserve. It's also good to see you can post an oppinion on this forum and not get trashed.

Here's a guy who never chased the gold. Yet at age 40 he defeated the Brazilian Champion (who had just won the Olympic Silver Medal). It took about thirty seconds. He threw the guy so hard and snapped him into an arm bar so fast that it brought tears to the guys eyes. (But that's just a story one of his students told me.)

"I remember one of my conversations with Sensei after he had seen Royces fight with Dan Severn. He was amazed that Royce, who was represented as one of BJJ's best, but still took 20 minutes to choke Severn with Sankaku-jime (a very popular Judo technique). So if you put things in perspective you can see how they can look at BJJ call it Judo and say it stinks."

What? I take it your sensei has absolutely no idea how hard it is to submit Dan....I am willing to put money on it he couldnt do it in nhb any faster than Royce did....Let us not forget,Dan has done alot of sport judo as well and was a sambo champion..All prior to ufc...

He also was HUGE compared to Royce...I roll with Dan and I use Judo and I'll tell ya Judo,BJJ,whatever, he is not easy to submit!! Especially by a smaller guy like Royce..

So no,I can't see why they say it is judo and it stinks...

Quincy is 100% correct. You can close the thread now.

Sorry if I offended you Quincy. But my the first choke my Sensei was taught was Sankaku Jime and he fought in the All Japan Championships (there were no weight classes). He was also the smallest person to ever win the All Japan Championships in Sumo for the businessmans class (that's like the amateur class).

But anyway I don't wish to get into a long debate so you are right. It's time to close this thread.

Joe Moreira told me the same thing. He said that there wasn't any difference between judo and BJJ when he learned it. He said the stuff he learned on the ground, he learned mostly from Mehdi.

then why doesn't moreira say that he is teaching judo? you claim that he took standup judo and judo newaza and calls it BJJ - he just teaches and practices it poorly. some of you guys seem to be saying that BJJ is just "bad" judo done by incompetent practicioners. so judo guys should come out to the BJJ tourneys and sweep up, win all the mundials, and close down the art. after all, its just judo done poorly - any good judoka giving away 70 lbs could choke out Severn in moments. hahaha.

I have heard about the legend of Medhi for years. unquestionably he has skills and is a good teacher, but he seems like another bitter older man who misses the spotlight - a breed we seem to see so much in the martial arts.

As for the best GJJ practicioner in new jersey at the time of the first UFC... no idea who that would be. it almost certainly wasn't a black belt, as there were none on the east coast at the time. Kukuk came out later than that. If you could find 20 people in the whole state who had ever heard of GJJ at the time, I would be suprised.

what a time warp thread, I thought we put all this crap behind us years ago.

"But my the first choke my Sensei was taught was Sankaku Jime"

Yeah,but what does that have to do with the price of rice in china?

You know how many people have known triangles who have never gotten Dan in one?

I dont care if the first move he learned was the flying butt plyers.. That aint gunna get him nowhere into subbing severn...

The attack on BJJ is absolutely stupid,if you enjoy realistic judo,your respect for bjj should be great..I have no problem with thinking it is judo (as it is), but to say it stinks is just plain denial...Show up at a submission tourney and say that,it's easy to talk from the pine.I dont buy your argument and dont think it's backed in blood,so to speak....

NIce post Quincy...

very nice post Quincy, except for the part about the flying butt pliers. ;)

I don't know what flying butt plyers are and don't care
to know either...