check out these books -
http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/books.htm
look at all three "pages" (book 1, book 2 and book3 web pages)
Whooooah! Sweet. I'll check more in depth when I get the chance. Did you ever get that info?
Thanks,
Jerry
Jerry -
yea i did, which is why i directed yo to those books - some of the info is in a book on the "book 3" page - scan on 'Forensic Pathology', D. Di Maio, V. Di Maio (1993) ISBN 0849395038
He just got it to me - I only scaned the stuff - the bleed rates i saw from his stuff is general bleed out times, not artery specific (i think thats what we were talking about) - anyway - he'll be in town next week, and i'll ask him specifically where the bleed times are -
i directed the books to you necause my scanner is in cali - i'm in denver - so i figured it would be easier for you to find the books then for me to scan the shit in and post
Sreiter,
Off topic. I might be going to NY this July. Lets meet up, have a couple of drinks, show me around the city, etc. I'll be located in Manhattan.
Been talking to Baste recently. Anyway, my e-mail is tobyreyes@hotmail.com.
TOBY
Toby -
LOL --
I told you a while ago, I am in denver. Guess you forgot - I've been out of NYC since 9/01
Havent talked to Baste' but I've spoken to Alvin a few times -
Cool. hehe. I forgot you were in Denver.
Thanks again for the links.
I checked out all three pages as well as some peripheral links.
I literally LOL at this:
"Textbooks on forensic pathology are often quite dogmatic about methods of estimating time since death. Although most give the reader the impression that temperature measurements, post-mortem lividity, rigor-mortis and other such techniques are not completely infallible, they don't actually indicate that they are actually quite unreliable, and are subject to wide margins of error.
The authors of this book leave the reader in no doubt of this fallibility, and go so far as to say that it is only the forensic 'charlatans' that provide the police with extremely accurate estimates of time since death - the true professional is much more cautious, and 'wishy-washy'. Excellent advice for the newcomer to the subject!"
That was kind of my point in our conversation a while back.
If you could remeber to ask about the bleed rate tables I'd really appreciate it. If the info is indeed in that book I'll proceed from there.
Thanks again for remembering.
Jerry
Jerry,
Interesting quote, however isnt that a bit off topic?
I mean, isnt estimating time of death, different then slicing someone femeral artery and seeing how long it takes them to bleed out?
granted, I do see your points about different people may have different factors that can cause a +/- in the time it take to bleed out/die - but I would think that a median could be reach -
Jumping in to this as someone who's punctured more than a few radial and femoral arteries, and a couple of carotids (big red in the neck, BAD)- any 'bleed time' is going to be highly variable for the following reasons-
1). Clotting. Bleeding stops. Even carotid punctures will generally clot if the hole isn't too big and pressure is applied. There will be some degree of variability in clotting times between individuals.
2). Tamponade. Bleeding into an area around a wound can cause a hematoma (blood collection) which compresses the wound, holding it shut (tamponading it).
3). Size of the laceration/ puncture- rate of blood is basically flow, and will be a function of the square of radius of the hole (put simply- the fluid dynamics are a good bit more complicated, but the basic point stands).
4). Blood pressure- flow will be related to the pressure gradient between internal (blood) and external (atmospheric) pressure.
5). Fraction of cardiac output seen by punctured artery- this gets complicated. Sympathetic outflow will boost cardiac output (liters/min), and locally vasoconstrict (pushing up the blood pressure). Add to this the fact that local trauma can cause an artery to spasm and constrict, and this further complicates matters.
So, for identical twins with similar levels of sympathetic outflow and cardiac output with identical puncture wounds, bleeding rates should be roughly similar (providing one hasn't been on a three day drinking binge and dropped their platlets, or doesn't eat their veggies and is vitamin K deficient, or have von Willibrand's, or. . .)
Andrew
interest observations - and i agree - that however doesnt mean that there are some basic guide lines coroner have noted
btw - under waht circumstances where these arteries punched (where they punched on you or by you)?
Steven,
I don't think it is too far off topic. I see these things as closely related. My point is that for some martial arts or knife fighting "expert" to make statements in the manner we discussed previously is a bit silly. Due to the variables involved as stated by Andrew, any "ball park figure" would be so wide as to be pretty useless. It IS safe too say getting cut in certain areas could be or often are lethal. I think it's safe to say that certain areas cause the body to bleed more profusely, even life threateningly so.
The issue I have is when people who have no business making these claims do so in order to:
A) Demonstrate how lethal their system is.
B) Prove how indefensible a knife attack is.
Many people have stories about friends or acquaintances who were stabbed etc. and survived. I'm sure you have heard these stories as well. The same amount of people probably have seen the news or heard of someone with the same injury who died.
Knives can kill. No doubt about it. If confronted, I'm running as fast as I can; if I can.
What is the necessity for stating, "if you get cut here you will be dead in______"? What purpose does this serve except to make the speaker sound more "expert"?
Andrew,
Thanks for chiming in with your experience and knowledge. Very interesting insights indeed.
Jerry
I agree with Jerry I have met people who say the "get cut in the leg bleed out in X seconds", yet I also have met Vietnam vets with no legs who didn't just get cut they had legs blown off who still managed to survive.
You shouldn't build a system on pseudo science and supposed reactions. It's like an instructor I knew who talked about how he liked serrayed knives because they made lacerations that were harder to stitch up. Why should I care what happens an hour from now in the emergency room, it is the here and now that matters.
Marc
OH NO...LOL
I'm sorry I even futhered the conversatoin - looks like we're gonna re-hash the exact same discussion that started all this - LOL
for the record -
yes, I agree differet people bleed at different rates due to various factors.
yes, I agree with marc about people surviving many tpes of attacks that have proven fatal for other (great point about a whole leg being blown off - but, you have to factor in the explosion may(????) have cortorized (sp?) the wound, medical attention maight have been in time to save a life, ect - but a great point one the less)
but, i still think that general rules can be given - lets take the RNC - a general rule could be said that if appiled correctly, it will render a man unconscience in 5-10 seconds - some people might not go out, some may go out quicker, but a general rule could be established -
a better example would be the bite of a venomus snake - there are time tables of death within (x) time period - it's the same thing IMO -
Stephen,
I'm an MD. I've been doing hospital-based medicine and critical care for the last 5 years, taking care of post-open heart surgery patients. Virtually all of my patients come to me post-femoral artery puncture (cardiac cath), and I've stuck a lot of big needles in uncomfortable places, and have seen many complications.
Jerry,
glad to help. Sorry I haven't made it out your way in a while, but I've had something else cooking. Check your e-mail.
Andrew
cool
thanks andrew - the orig post sounded alot more ominous