attn Catholics?

please dont take this the wrong way. i've asked numerous self proclaiming catholics this question and none will give me a straight answer and as there seem to be quite a few well schooled catholics on this forum i thought i might ask you allthis?

with regards to praying to Mary, how do you take I Timothy 2:5 into account?

I am assuming you are referring to the Hail Mary.

Before I answer your questions, let me ask you this, what is your understanding of the purpose of the Hail Mary?

Also, while you're at it, let me know if/how prayer and worship are different.

Ya beat me to it Clay...

But isn't there a difference between having others pray for you and actually praying to saints?

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.

Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now, and in the hour of our death.

jeff, please note the last line.

yeah what Jeff said.

jeff/kempowrestler, can you respond to my second question above?

Is there a difference between prayer and worship, and if so, what is it?

Yeah and no.

i can pray with out worshiping and worship with out praying. but at the same time my worship can be a prayer as well.

Prayer is request and conversation, worship is sacrifice. Catholics converse with God, Mary and the saints, but we offer sacrifice to God alone. The Church always distinguishes between the divine worship due to God alone (latria) and the lesser honor (veneration) given to Mary (hyperdulia)or the saints (dulia).

how do you converse with Mary? how does she converse back? how do the other saints converse back? whats the difference between them and me when i die?

i'm not trying to be argumentative i'm just wondering why catholics do this? i mean we dont have any biblical refrence of the early church conversing with like moses and noah and other old test. people? do catholics converse and pray to them as well?

Give me a while to reply....the shit is hitting the fan here at work...

NDIrish, thanks for your explaination. Although I don't have the same belief as you in that area, you did explain your side well.

no problem..just put onyour rain coat so you can hose it off later

kempowwrestler, this might address some of your questions (this is a copy and paste job):

We don't pray to angels and saints instead of God; we pray to God and to the angels and saints. The two are not mutually exclusive, but complementary.

Have you ever asked another person to pray for you when you had a problem? You most likely have, yet I'm sure you pray to God as well. Catholics pray to saints to ask them to pray to God for us. We can and do pray for ourselves, of course, but it helps to have others pray for you, as the Bible says (Ephesians 6:18-19; I Thessalonians 5:25; Hebrews 13:18) and as Protestants themselves do.

The angels can also pray for us; the Bible shows them in an intercessory role, offering our prayers before the throne of God (Tobias 12:12 DV; Apocalypse/Revelation 8:3).

Since the holy angels are sinless, and the saints have been made perfect (Hebrews 12:23) their prayers are the prayers of the righteous, and the Bible says "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (James 5:16). Since they are with God, they know what is best for us better than we do, and so can pray more according to God's will. The Bible says that God always answers prayers which align with His will (I John 5:14-15); hence their prayers are sometimes answered even when ours are not. It's not that God doesn't love us, it's just that our prayers are sometimes selfish, and this blocks their efficacy (see James 4:3). That's why it's good to have holy, selfless prayer partners in heaven helping us out with their own petitions. It is our weakness which make this necessary.

ND as i agree with having prayer partners and interceding for others

my question is. what biblical example is there of praying to other humans that have passed on already? ?

"what biblical example is there of praying to other humans that have passed on already?"

I am not aware of any, but:

1. with my current biblical knowledge, that doesn't surprise me

2. that doesn't necessarily make it wrong.

Take an example, me any my grandmother. She died about 10 years ago. She was the only grandparent I knew, and I was very close to her. Sometimes, I try to speak to her in my that wrong? I don't think it is.

But hey, if it's not for you, that's OK. Whatever floats your boat is fine by me.

I agree with kempo that there is a difference between asking friends/family to pray for you and praying to saints to have them pray for you.

well jefft, that's your belief and preference. But I think I have outlined where Catholics are coming from when we pray to mary and the saints. When we do this, we are not committing idolatry, as is the common misperception.

That reminds me of a quote I once heard:

"There are not over a hundred people...who hate the Roman Catholic Church.

There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church"
-Bishop Fulton J. Sheen