Attn: Martial Shadow

Yo bro, lately I've read you making remarks about Jesus' sacrifice as if the OT Jewish faith didn't include animal sacrifices, and the "shedding of blood" to deal w/the sins of the people. If the OT sacrificial system didn't include the shedding of innocent blood to deal with sins and various trespasses, then what does the OT sacrificial system mean?





Puzzled


How do Jews obtain forgiveness without sacrifices?

Forgiveness is obtained through repentance, prayer and good deeds. In Jewish practice, prayer has taken the place of sacrifices. In accordance with the words of Hosea, we render instead of bullocks the offering of our lips (Hosea 14:3) (please note: the KJV translates this somewhat differently). While dedicating the Temple, King Solomon also indicated that prayer can be used to obtain forgiveness (I Kings 8:46-50). Our prayer services are in many ways designed to parallel the sacrificial practices. For example, we have an extra service on shabbat, to parallel the extra shabbat offering.

It is important to note that in Judaism, sacrifice was never the exclusive means of obtaining forgiveness, was not in and of itself sufficient to obtain forgiveness, and in certain circumstances was not even effective to obtain forgiveness. This will be discussed further below.

But isn't a blood sacrifice required in order to obtain forgiveness?

No. Although animal sacrifice is one means of obtaining forgiveness, there are non-animal offerings as well, and there are other means for obtaining forgiveness that do not involve sacrifices at all. The passage that people ordinarily cite for the notion that blood is required is Leviticus 17:11: "For the soul of the flesh is in the blood and I have assigned it for you upon the altar to provide atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that atones for the soul." But the passage that this verse comes from is not about atonement; it is about dietary laws, and the passage says only that blood is used to obtain atonement; not that blood is the only means for obtaining atonement. Leviticus 17:10-12 could be paraphrased as "Don't eat blood, because blood is used in atonement rituals; therefore, don't eat blood."

Were sacrifices a symbol of the savior to come?

Not according to Judaism. That is a Christian teaching that has no basis in Jewish thought. Jews don't believe in a savior, and don't believe that sacrifice has anything to do with a savior or messiah.
Quite the contrary, some would say that the original institution of sacrifice had more to do with the Judaism's past than with its future. Rambam suggested that the entire sacrificial cult in Judaism was ordained as an accommodation of man's primitive desires.

Sacrifice is an ancient and universal human expression of religion. Sacrifice existed among the Hebrews long before the giving of the Torah. When the laws of sacrifice were laid down in the Torah, the pre-existence of a system of sacrificial offering was understood, and sacrificial terminology was used without any explanation. The Torah, rather than creating the institution of sacrifice, carefully circumscribes and limits the practice, permitting it only in certain places, at certain times, in certain manners, by certain people, and for certain purposes. Rambam suggests that these limitations are designed to wean a primitive people away from the debased rites of their idolatrous neighbors.

Qorbanot

In ancient times, a major component of Jewish ritual was the offering of qorbanot. An entire order of the Talmud (Kodashim, that is, Holy Things) is devoted to the subject.

The word "qorbanot" is usually translated as "sacrifices" or "offerings"; however, both of these terms suggest a loss of something or a giving up of something, and although that is certainly a part of the ritual, that is not at all the literal meaning of the Hebrew word. The word qorbanot comes from the root Qof-Resh-Bet, which means "to draw near," and indicates the primary purpose of offerings: to draw us near to G-d.

Parts of the rituals involved in the offering of qorbanot were performed exclusively by the kohanim (priests). These rituals were only performed in the Temple in Jerusalem. The procedures could not be performed by anyone else, and could not be performed in any other place. Because the Temple no longer exists, we can no longer offer qorbanot.

There are three basic concepts underlying qorbanot. The first the aspect of giving. A qorban requires the renunciation of something that belongs to the person making the offering. Thus, sacrifices are made from domestic animals, not wild animals (because wild animals do not belong to anyone). Likewise, offerings of food are ordinarily in the form of flour or meal, which requires substantial work to prepare.

Another important concept is the element of substitution. The idea is that the thing being offered is a substitute for the person making the offering, and the things that are done to the offering are things that should have been done to the person offering. The offering is in some sense "punished" in place of the offerer. It is interesting to note that whenever the subject of qorbanot is addressed in the Torah, the name of G-d used is the four-letter name indicating G-d's mercy.

The third important concept is the idea coming closer. The essence of sacrifice is to bring a person closer to G-d.

Purposes of Qorbanot

Contrary to popular belief, the purpose of qorbanot is not simply to obtain forgiveness from sin. Although many qorbanot have the effect of expiating sins, there are many other purposes for bringing qorbanot, and the expiatory effect is often incidental, and is subject to significant limitations.

Certain qorbanot are brought purely for the purpose of communing with G-d and becoming closer to Him. Others are brought for the purpose of expressing thanks to G-d, love or gratitude. Others are used to cleanse a person of ritual impurity (which does not necessarily have anything to do with sin). And yes, many qorbanot are brought for purposes of atonement.

The atoning aspect of qorbanot is carefully circumscribed. For the most part, qorbanot only expiate unintentional sins, that is, sins committed because a person forgot that this thing was a sin. No atonement is needed for violations committed under duress or through lack of knowledge, and for the most part, qorbanot cannot atone for a malicious, deliberate sin. In addition, qorbanot have no expiating effect unless the person making the offering sincerely repents his or her actions before making the offering, and makes restitution to any person who was harmed by the violation.

There are many different types of qorbanot, and the laws related to them are detailed and complicated. This section will merely introduce some of the major types of qorbanot, their names and their characteristics. There are many subtypes within these classifications, and some other types that do not fit neatly into these categories.

Olah: Burnt Offering
Perhaps the best-known class of offerings is the burnt offering. It was the oldest and commonest sacrifice, and represented submission to G-d's will. The Hebrew word for burnt offering is olah, from the root Ayin-Lamed-Heh, meaning ascension. It is the same root as the word aliyah, which is used to describe moving to Israel or ascending to the podium to say a blessing over the Torah. An olah is completely burnt on the outer altar; no part of it is eaten by anyone. Because the offering represents complete submission to G-d's will, the entire offering is given to G-d (i.e., it cannot be used after it is burnt). It expresses a desire to commune with G-d, and expiates sins incidentally in the process (because how can you commune with G-d if you are tainted with sins?). An olah could be made from cattle, sheep, goats, or even birds, depending on the offerer's means.

Zebach Sh'lamim: Peace Offering
A peace offering is an offering expressing thanks or gratitude to G-d for His bounties and mercies. The Hebrew term for this type of offering is zebach sh'lamim (or sometimes just sh'lamim), which is related to the word shalom, meaning "peace" or "whole." A representative portion of the offering is burnt on the altar, a portion is given to the kohanim, and the rest is eaten by the offerer and his family; thus, everyone gets a part of this offering. This category of offerings includes thanksgiving-offerings (in Hebrew, Todah, which was obligatory for survivors of life-threatening crises), free will-offerings, and offerings made after fulfillment of a vow. Note that this class of offerings has nothing to do with sin; in fact, the Talmud states that in the age of the messiah (when there is no more sin), this will be the only class of offering that is brought to the Temple.

Chatat: Sin Offering
A sin offering is an offering to atone for and purge a sin. It is an expression of sorrow for the error and a desire to be reconciled with G-d. The Hebrew term for this type of offering is chatat, from the word chayt, meaning "missing the mark." A chatat could only be offered for unintentional sins committed through carelessness, not for intentional, malicious sins. The size of the offering varied according to the nature of the sin and the financial means of the sinner. Some chatatot are individual and some are communal. Communal offerings represent the interdependence of the community, and the fact that we are all responsible for each others' sins. A few special chatatot could not be eaten, but for the most part, for the average person's personal sin, the chatat was eaten by the kohanim.

Asham: Guilt Offering
A guilt offering is an offering to atone for sins of stealing things from the altar, for when you are not sure whether you have committed a sin or what sin you have committed, or for breach of trust. The Hebrew word for a guilt offering is asham. When there was doubt as to whether a person committed a sin, the person would make an asham, rather than a chatat, because bringing a chatat would constitute admission of the sin, and the person would have to be punished for it. If a person brought an asham and later discovered that he had in fact committed the sin, he would have to bring a chatat at that time. An asham was eaten by the kohanim.

Food and Drink Offerings
A meal offering (minchah) represented the devotion of the fruits of man's work to G-d, because it was not a natural product, but something created through man's effort. A representative piece of the offering was burnt on the fire of the altar, but the rest was eaten by the kohanim.

Could this be archived?

MS

MS, I see your point that Judaism, at least as it exists today, looks at Jesus' crucifixion as being foreign to it's own concepts redemption. However, you must admit, that much of the Christian's validation for Calvary stems back into the OT and Jewish tradition and Law.

The first act of worship recorded in scripture was Abel offering a lamb in Genesis 4. And we feel that
God first gave him those instructions otherwise, why did God reject Cain's offering?

In Genesis 22 as Abraham is planning on offering up Isaac, he states that "God himself would provide the lamb for the burnt offering." Christians see this as an OT foreshadow of Calvary.

In addition, it's in Exodus 12 where the passover lamb is slain, and God says "when I see the blood, I'll pass over you."

OT sacrificial lambs were to be without spot and blemish and Christ never sinned. So He remained the spotless/perfect lamb.

Furthermore, it's in Isaiah 52 and 53 where we read the messiah will be wounded for our transgressions and that he would be led out as a lamb to the slaughter.

And although Judaism, doesn't recognize the NT as authoritative, the theme of Jesus being the lamb of God is continued in a multitude of references, many of which refer back to the OT. So you'd have to surmise that the Christian concept or understanding of Jesus' sacrifice is plausible given the Bible (OT and NT) depicts the event as an offering.



Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Jer 11:19 But I [was] like a lamb [or] an ox [that] is brought to the slaughter; and I knew not that they had devised devices against me, [saying], Let us destroy the tree with the fruit thereof, and let us cut him off from the land of the living, that his name may be no more remembered.

That dude Rambam, seems to say that Judaism's sacrificial system was a construct of man and not of God. Is that right? I mean, clearly the Torah shows that it's God who establishes this practice and not man. Why would God honor a manmade system of atonement?

Rambam's arguement is that the ancient Hebrews were surronded by pagan tribes who made sacrifices. Believing in one invisible G-d was hard enough, so He gave them the right to do sacrifices.

As to the proofs you give, first everything posted above dervies from Torah or Mishnah (oral Torah) and therefore is the word of G-d.

In Contra Celsum, written in 248 C.E. (some 800 years before Rashi), the Church Father Origen records that Jews contemporary with him interpreted this passage as referring to the entire nation of Israel. He wrote:

I remember that once in a discussion with some whom the Jews regard as learned I used these prophecies [Isaiah 52:13-53:8]. At this the Jew said that these prophecies referred to the whole people as though of a single individual, since they were scattered in the dispersion and smitten, that as a result of the scattering of the Jews among the other nations many might become proselytes. In this way he explained the text: "Thy form shall be inglorious among men"; and "those to whom he was not proclaimed shall see him"; "being a man in calamity." (Origen, Contra Celsum, trans. Henry Chadwick, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, Book 1.55, 1965, p. 50)

The fact is that the identity of the servant has already been established by Isaiah in previously stated passages. In Isaiah 41 :8-9; 44:1-2, 21; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3 the prophet identifies Israel as the servant.

In Gen 22, the word is not lamb, it is sacrifice- and G-d does, a ram is found in a thicket.

Exodus 12: This has NOTHING to do with the sacrificial system of the Temple. Think of it. The laws of sacrifice were set up for sacrifices at the Temple. These lambs were killed (not sacrificed) for the Passover. This was completely different and unrelated to anything else. That would be like saying the intermarriage of Samson affected David's infedelity. One is completely unrelated to the other.

Judaism does not recognize that one man can suffer for another man's sins (exceptions: If a Jew becomes a pagan, it is punished for 4 generations, the Amalekites, the original Cannaite nations). What everyman does, he will pay for, no one can take it from him and he can not give it to anyman- that is free will in action.

This is not only Judaism today, Judaism at the time of Jesus rejected Jesus. He did not fulfil the signs, therefore he is not Moshiach.

MS

ms: This is not only Judaism today, Judaism at the time of Jesus rejected Jesus. He did not fulfil the signs, therefore he is not Moshiach.

Me: the only historical information we have on Jesus is through the NT. The writers clearly show his fufillment of the OT. Now you can say you don't believe the writers and therefore He is not Messiah but to just say "he didn't fufil" the signs is an opinion not based on a reading of the NT.

Further, the entire OT is about blood atonement. Not just Lambs, but rams, doves, bullocks, red heifers, first fruits, etc. The temple had a place for the blood letting, a place for the High Priest to wash the blood, and place to burn the offering.

To minimize the blood atonements and sacrificial system of judaism is to miss the essence of the Torah! Sin causes death, God allowed sacrifice as a form of substitutionary atonement!

Right now there is a movement in Israel TO RESTORE THE TEMPLE AND that includes restoring the levitical priesthood AS WELL AS ANIMAL SACRIFICE!

You claim Israel the nation was the "suffering servant". Was Israel sold for 30 pieces of silver? Was Israel hung before 2 transgressors w/out a bone broken? Was Israel born to a virgin maiden? Was John the Baptist a fake? He pointed at Jesus and said, "Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world". Remember, not all Jews rejected Jesus in His day. Many important, influential and respected Jews saw and believed him for what He was. The I AM.

"The entire OT is about blood atonement." no.

As stated in the explanatory text, different animals were sacrificed for different reasons. Yes, some fundamentalist Jews do want to blow up the Mosque and rebuild the Temple in order to force Moshiach to appear and bring about the end of days- they are fools, do not be counted among them.

Where in the OT does it say the Moshiach will be sold for 30 pieces of silver? Where does it say he will be hung w/2 transgressors? It does not say virgin? I don't know John the baptist but I understand the mikveh ritual he was practicing. Today, some people believe in suicidal sun cults, the fact that some Jews believed in Jesus is irrelevant to his Messianic status.

Who is the Moshiach and what will Moshiach do? (And please point out when Jesus did these)

1- He must be Jewish Deut 17:15 (this is not in debate)

2- He must be of the tribe of Judah Gen 49:10(were both his parents from the tribe of Judah?)

3- Direct descendant of the King David/King Solomen line 2Samual 7:12-13 (Was he?)

4- Gather all scattered Jews Isaiah 11:12, Jeremiah 23:8, 30:3, Hosea 3:4-5(Did Jesus gather all Jews scattered throughout the Roman empire and beyond it?)

5- Rebuilt the Temple Ezekiel 37:27, Jeremiah 33:18 (It had not yet been destroyed? How could he be Moshiach)

6- Bring about and rule with world peace Micah4:3 Isaiah 2:4 (What world peace?)

7- All Jews will observe all the commandments Ezekiel 37:24 Jeremiah 33:15 (Need I explain this one?)

8- All people acknoledge only one G-d Isaiah 66:23

edit 9- G-d will send Elijah the prophet before the Messiah to prepare the way Malachi 4:5 (Did Elijah appear to every Jewish household and declare that Moshiach was coming?)

Understand, it is not my intention to disuade you from believing. But I have very simple and clear reasons that I, and all Jews, reject Jesus, Shabtai Zvi, Bar Kochba and others.

MS

Wow, interesting reading. And people think science is complicated ... ;)

MS: As stated in the explanatory text, different animals were sacrificed for different reasons.

Me: the fact that a rabbi defines the various SACRIFICES does not minimize the fact that these brought the individual (or the nation) in RIGHT RELATIONSHIP with God!

You mention the "Olah" as "It expresses a desire to commune with G-d, and expiates sins incidentally in the process (because how can you commune with G-d if you are tainted with sins?). An olah could be made from cattle, sheep, goats, or even birds, depending on the offerer's means. " Note that the burnt offering STARTED with the SHEDDING OF THE BLOOD OF THE SACRIFICE! The fact that this was a blood atonement in which the sacrifice was consumed completely by fire was a foreshadowing of Jesus blood sacrifice and his being "burnt" by the Holy fire of God in judgement for the sins cast upon him!

You also mention the "chatat" and the "asham" FOR ATONING AND PURGING OF SINS! These were the bulk of many of the types which foreshadowed the life of the innocent (animal) substituting for the sin of the individual or nation! Again, this barely touches the surface of individual examples as well as other examples of Messiah as deliverer (Kinsmen Redeemer, Jubilee, etc.)

ms: Yes, some fundamentalist Jews do want to blow up the Mosque and rebuild the Temple in order to force Moshiach to appear and bring about the end of days- they are fools, do not be counted among them.

Me: well, first of all, they are STILL Jews. Also, there was and is no national movement so closely akin to Judaism as ancient Christianity. It was a Messianic Jewish movement.

MS: Where in the OT does it say the Moshiach will be sold for 30 pieces of silver?

Me; 30 pieces of silver was the price of a SERVANT:

Exd 21:32 If the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.

It was also the price of a female heifer (Jesus being sold for the price of a female offering is symbolic of both shame and atonement).

To answer you, the prophetic scripture is:

Zec 11:12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give [me] my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty [pieces] of silver.

Zec 11:13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty [pieces] of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

Mat 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

MS: does it say he will be hung w/2 transgressors?

Me: Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Mar 15:28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.

MS: It does not say virgin?

Me: Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Almah=virgin


Ms: He must be of the tribe of Judah Gen 49:10(were both his parents from the tribe of Judah?)

Me: check out his genealogy in Matthew and Luke. 2 are offered. One shows his descendency and claim to the tribe of Judah through Mary and the other through Joseph. NOte: the bible makes it clear that Joseph was his "step father" and that He was begotten (like adam) by God.

ms: 3- Direct descendant of the King David/King Solomen line 2Samual 7:12-13 (Was he?)

me: yes. He was a direct descendent of David

Ms: - Gather all scattered Jews Isaiah 11:12, Jeremiah 23:8, 30:3, Hosea 3:4-5(Did Jesus gather all Jews scattered throughout the Roman empire and beyond it?)

Me: will be fufilled in the Messianic age which is coming...

MS: - Rebuilt the Temple Ezekiel 37:27, Jeremiah 33:18 (It had not yet been destroyed? How could he be Moshiach)

Me: HE IS THE TEMPLE. THE TEMPLE WAS DESTROYED AND HE "REBUILT" IT IN 3 DAYS.

ms: Bring about and rule with world peace Micah4:3 Isaiah 2:4 (What world peace?)

me: coming...

ms: edit 9- G-d will send Elijah the prophet before the Messiah to prepare the way Malachi 4:5 (Did Elijah appear to every Jewish household and declare that Moshiach was coming?)

me: Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

John came in the spirit and ministry of Elijah to announce the coming of the Lord.

So, we have

1 Yes

2 Yes (though questions about his exact parentage exist)

3 No/ Not yet

4 Ok, a human being CAN NOT be the Temple so No

5 No/ Not yet

6 No/ Some other guy

When these are fulfiled (if they are fulfiled at some future date by Jesus) hey I'll sign up. Until then, he is not the Moshiach.

While ancient Christianity was a group of Jews (and some pagans) today's Christianity is divorced from many basic Jewish concepts, as we have discussed in the past.

Ex 21:32- Dude, that is in a series of laws, not a Messianic prophecy. You can't just pick and choose your prophecies. Look at it in context, from 21:28 onward they are talking about laws concerning a ox.

The Zech. prophecy is discussing the people of Israel and G-d see 10:6

As stated previously, The fact is that the identity of the servant has already been established by Isaiah in previously stated passages. In Isaiah 41 :8-9; 44:1-2, 21; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3 the prophet identifies Israel as the servant.

First, the accepted translation from Hebrew is "7:14 Therefore the L-rd Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." Second, The seventh chapter in the Book of Isaiah begins by describing the military crisis that was confronting King Ahaz of the Kingdom of Judah. Isaiah records that the House of David and King Ahaz were gripped with fear. G-d sent the prophet Isaiah to reassure King Ahaz that divine protection was at hand – G-d would protect him and his kingdom and that their deliverance was assured, and these two hostile armies would fail in their attempt to subjugate Jerusalem. It is clear from the narrative in this chapter, that Isaiah's declaration (Is 7:14-16) was a prophecy about the unsuccessful siege of Jerusalem by the two armies from the north. The verses Isaiah 7:15-16 state that, by the time this child (whose imminent birth was foretold in Isaiah 7:14) reaches the age of maturity ("... he knows to reject bad and choose good ..."), the kings of the two enemy nations will be gone, in fact, they will be killed. Two Biblical passages, 2 Kings 15:29-30 and 2 Kings 16:9, confirm that this prophecy was contemporaneously fulfilled when these two kings were assassinated. With an understanding of the context of Isaiah 7:14 alone, it is evident that the name of the child in Isaiah 7:14, Immanu'el, is a sign which points to the divine protection that King Ahaz and his people would enjoy from their otherwise certain demise at the hands of these two enemies. Third, Mary's alleged virginity was not something that could be openly displayed as a proof that something out of the ordinary happened. People would only scoff at such a claim no matter how virtuous the girl was thought to be. A "sign" must be something all can see. An alleged "sign" that would require a gynecological examination of Mary is simply not what is meant by a "sign" in the Jewish Scriptures.

MS

MS,

"Judaism does not recognize that one man can suffer for another man's sins"


Ahhh, Christians also believe that one person can't suffer for the wrongs of another, however, we do believe in substitutionary atonement in the case of God with Christ. And Judaism recognizes substitutionary atonement also. Not with humans, but w/animals. Christians believe that God himself provided the one and only sacrifice (lamb of God) that would suffice for the sins of the whole world. So to say that one man suffering for anther's wrongs is a foreign idea to Judaism, you must also qualify that with the acknowledgement of a God given/instituted atonement system which called for substitutionary sacrifices.


It seems to me, that Judaism has effectively filtered out any and all references to the Messiah as a suffering servant and concluded that it can't be refering to the Messiah and is instead referring to Israel. Sure that fits nicely with your theology, but what constitutes such an interpretation? Christians believe that all the references to the Messiah will be fulfilled eventually.






Puzzled

Eventually? He will live one life time and they must all be fulfiled in that one life time, if they are not, he is not.

It is not interp. if in one place it says "Zion will suffer" and three paragraphs later it says "I will be tortured" the I is a direct refrence to Zion. Perhaps part of the problem lies in that Christians believe all men are sinful (original sin) while Jews do not. As Jews believe we are born pure and innocent, we earn our sins and we must pay for them. Animal sacrifice was but one way and it alone without "intention" (that is a bad translation of the word but I can not think of a better one w/o going into cultural-linguistics). King Solomen himself, when dedicating the Temple said that prayers are EQUIVALENT to sacrifice. One does not need sacrifice for frogiveness. It seems to me that in Christian interp. of the OT, a large emphasis is placed on the belief of sacrifice. If one believes Jesus was the final sacrifice for all sins (including original sin) then that would make sense. But from a strictly Jewish pov, it does not take into account that prayer is equivalent and that we do not believe the Messiah dies.

My one reccomendation, to strengthen your own faith, is to learn Hebrew and read the Bible the way Jesus read it. The Hebrew language can not be translated properly w/o a loss in meaning. While the JPS has created an acceptable translation, to say it is authentic would be daring indeed. Only the Hebrew will do.

MS

MS, I'll respond when I have more time...thanks!

ms: So, we have
1 Yes

2 Yes (though questions about his exact parentage exist)

3 No/ Not yet

4 Ok, a human being CAN NOT be the Temple so No

5 No/ Not yet

6 No/ Some other guy

When these are fulfiled (if they are fulfiled at some future date by Jesus) hey I'll sign up. Until then, he is not the Moshiach.

Me: I think the key stmt here is your last paragraph. You will wait for all scripture to be fufilled by Jesus (which they will). Please note that #6 is not literally Elijah. It is one coming in the Spirit of Elijah.