Love that passage!
I just made a thread somewhat related to this!
Nice passage! Regardless of religion!
I don't get it :(
Is he talking about judgement day?
Could someone please enlighten me on the meaning of the passage?
Sorry for being so ignorant.
well elgringo...I could give you the Christian answer...but I'm not really looking for the Christian answer.
read it and tell me..what you think he means
Wow! Ok... I'm gonna go out on a limb and ASSuME (as I always have) that your average Westerner has no clue what a Samaritan actually is (this will explain a portion of my position). Samaritans claim (and there is probably some truth to it) to be descendants of the Kingdom of Israel that was destroyed all those years ago while the rest of the Jews alive today are descendants of the Kingdom of Judea. They have slightly different customs and if anything, are basically considered a break-away sect from Judaism. They have 5 fundamental beliefs, one of which is relevant to the disucssion Jesus had with this woman (and we can tell that this has been going on longer than either has been alive).
1- One G-d, the G-d of Israel.
2- One prophet- Moses ben Amram
3- Belief in the Torah (first 5 books)
4- One Holy Place, Mt. Gerizim
5- The End of Days
Now, Jews traditionally say, the Universe is equally holy- but Jerusalem is where Heaven and Earth meet, therefore, many problems arise between Samaritans and Jews over this topic.
As to the conversation; I think he was trying to say that one needs to worship with Kavanah (intention, but that is an inadequate translation) and that without it- worship anywhere is useless. He claimed this comes from Jews because a) He's Jewish and b) Jews, esp. of that time period had developed many exercises to develop Kavanah so that their prayers woudl be pure.
I guess I see it breaking down as follows:
Holy places are ultimately mere trappings. They serve a purpose, but an inferior one (ie. to the immaterial nature of God and spirit).
Jews actually understand and have a proper relationship with God, because they're the ones who upheld the Covenant. Other people are seeing flittering shadows in the corners of their eyes, without really appreciating what they see. I assume this is the whole "truth" part of what he's saying. Soon the veil will be lifted, and both Jew and gentile will finally be able to attain the same understanding of God.
Spirit in that passage = pneuma. It's been a few years now since I translated those chapters of Acts, but IIRC they tended to talk about 'psyche' in that more than 'pneuma'. The terms for mind and soul are a little interchangeable, depending on which ancient source you're reading. However, they do carry specific nuances. Hence if they use psyche in some places, rather than just using pneuma as a general word for spirit, then the fact that the latter is used here is probably significant. Pneuma refers to the breath of life, basically. So, it's sort of like Jesus is talking about worshipping with your whole being - body and soul, the very essence of all that you are.
Is he saying something like . . .
"We worship pretty much the same God, but you just don't understand him. A time will come when our faiths will be united and we will worship the same thing"
Is that about right?
What is the Christian Answer, Pastor? How do you interpret what Christ says?
I would say all of you have touched on a bit of the truth. I'm interested in seeing what Scrapper has to say.
well done all of you.
MS do you find anything panthestic in the later parts of the conversation?
"But the hour is coming, and is now here, when true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth; and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship him. God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth."
No, not particularly.
ttt for scrapper
Our ancestors worshiped God on this mountain; but you people say that the place to worship God is in Jerusalem."
Jesus said to her, "Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.
I think Jesus understood that the worship of God isn't dicated by any specific place. If all is God's Creation, then why not worship where you stand?
You people worship what you do not understand; we worship what we understand, because salvation is from the Jews.
It sounds like he was telling her that her people were still religiously "immature"...perhaps following myths and legends, while the Jews religious practice had matured to a much higher level.
But the hour is coming, and is now here, when true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth; and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship him.
Perhaps he is talking about the surrender of the individual Ego to the realization that WHAT (not WHO) you are, is God.
The Mind, knowing that this division from God is not natural, seeks to reunite. Of course, some relish in the division and create their own identity based on it, and others seek to dissolve and realize their true nature.
God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth."
God is the spirit/consciousness from which all existence comes from. Those who worship him, soon realize that there is no "they" to worship...it is simply God seeking himself.
jewish supremacism, IMO