most the skinny guys who workout here at the rec center have terrible form. Its a cluster fuck of 4 guys who look pretty much like carbon copies of each other. They grab 35lbs plates for shrugs and roll their shoulders one way then back the other way. Im guessing maybe this isnt enough weight to hurt them and thats the only reason they can get away with it.
Is there a logic behind why the biggest people in the gym have the worst form generally speaking? And how most the people who give looks and posture lift in a way that that should just wreck their bodies? Yet nothing ever happens to them? Im confused.
Could be a lot of reasons. First you have to consider that they could be on steroids, or they could be genetic freaks. These people can get away with doing more wrong then the average joe.
That aside, and assuming nothing too freaky is going on, it's interesting that you bring this up. The thread title is the best question posed.
A personal trainer i once knew said to me "to get big you have to cheat." By "cheat" he meant use momentum to do more reps.
So what is going on here? This sort of "cheating" is typically scorned by the bodybuilding and fitness communities, but why do almost all of the big guys do it, at least part of the time?
As long as your REAL form is on (ie. you arent doing things that would cause you injury, since using momentum, and your whole body to lift weights is a staple in olympic lifting) there isn't much of a risk of injury. My guess is that these guys are unwittingly periodizing their training in a way. They hit a plateau, and they alter the way they lift to work through it.
There are better methods, but this is what i suspect. If their form is truelly bad, well be amazed at how long the body can handle damage before people have to quit lifting. For some, it's a while.
-doug-
Eventually that stuff catches up with you. But like Doug said it's amazing what the body can put up with.
Also they may have injuries they train through, or avoid certain exercises due to bad shoulder or back.
A buddy of mine used to lift with the worst form and would always use half reps ect. He built a great physique training like that. I alway attributed to the fact that while he may have been benching with half reps he was still moving 300lbs+ for reps that has to count for something.
Part reps are IMO the best way to break a plateau.
Cheating to get more reps is at times a valid technique. Sometimes if I can safely cheat an extra rep or two in the positive portion of a lift I know I can safely reap the benefits of using the proper form in the negative portion.
A good quote I once read was, "Beginners cheat to make the exercise easier while experienced lifters will cheat to make the exercise harder."
Best in Health and Training, J. R.
so maybe a better way to put it would be like this: a boxer who boxes long enough will most likely break his hand(s). That its more a matter of time than anything else...
So you could train "badly" but if you dont get injured after awhile its likely just a matter of luck?
Fiat,
You have to consider your original question: what exactly is bad form?
In the fitness community using your body to lift a weight meant for a single joint is a no-no. The purpose of this isolation lift is to work only the protagonist muscle of that joint motion and nothing more. Anything else is wrong. Additionally, using momentum, half reps, or anything outside the norm is "cheating," "wrong," "in bad form," or any other title they may give it that has a negative connotation.
However, once you look outside the fitness community, into the olympic lifting, powerlifting, strongman, martial arts, gymnastics, or whatever sort of other fitness communities you want, you'll pretty quickly note that the things you've learned all along about not using your body to move a weight is actually the cornerstone of these communities.
Show me the olympic lifter that doesn't use momentum, the gymnast that doesnt explode ballistically, the powerlifter that doesnt use partial reps, speed lifts, or a big arch in their back when benching, the strongman that doesnt lift something awkward and i will show you an unsuccessful competitor.
The point is, there is a difference between what the fitness community labels "bad form" and the sort of form that will actually hurt you. Finding the difference requires an enormous amount of experience in athletics, that most people will never acheive. The sort of people the have achieved that, or want to, hang out in places like this.
It's a great question.
-doug-
Well my example was people making circles with their shoulders as they do shrugs. My understanding is that this a movement that is bad or harmful because its a path of movement that your traps were not designed to follow. Thats really my point. Its like how long can you make your body move in a way that its not meant to move before you hurt yourself...
it depends on the person. I couldnt do many shoulder exercises with bad form without an injury, but i could abuse my lower body a lot before bad things really accumulated. It all depends on the individual.
-doug-
One mans push press is another mans messed up cheating military press...
"My understanding is that this a movement that is bad or harmful because its a path of movement that your traps were not designed to follow. Thats really my point. Its like how long can you make your body move in a way that its not meant to move before you hurt yourself... "
Then that may not be a good example, rolling your shoulders during shrugs is not really dangerous, it's just unproductive and goofy.
And that's really the story with most examples of 'bad form': wasted or inefficient movement. Don't worry about them, it's comedy not tragedy.
I do hear lots of guys who are appalling benchers (or who use the smith machine often) complain of shoulder pain. They're usually the ones who reach failure in spectacular fashion with heavy weights.
I wouldnt say that im concerned about the well-being of these people cause thats certainly not true. Im just wondering about fact that there doesnt seem to be anything as "bad" form except something that ends up hurting you since its all so subjective.
Before to long I see myself working with athletes and coaching. Which seems funny now because the role of a coach seems almost stupid if the only criteria for someone's form being "bad" is whether they get hurt or not doing it.
Bad form is doing the exercise in a way that doesn't optimally recruit the targeted musles, energy system, or motor quality your supposed to be training.
Sometimes it leads to injury, sometimes it's just a waste of time.
"Bad form is doing the exercise in a way that doesn't optimally recruit the targeted musles, energy system, or motor quality your supposed to be training."
How does bad form change the energy system used?
There are biomechanically sound methods of forcing extra reps. These are such things as using leg drive on the military press. Using correct biomechanics - proper spinal alignment, weight distribution on heels, scapular stability - is typically the sole domain of the experienced trainee.
Those people who are cheating improperly usually don't even know that they are cheating. Wild, uncontrolled swinging, coupled with relaxation of scapular and lumbar stabilizers is a recipe for injury. Injury isn't certain nor always instantaneous, but they occur more often with this type of lifting.
Here is another example. Take the barbell curl. Someone who is experienced might pump out a few extra reps by using a quick hip bump to get the bar started from the bottom. You won't see him attempting a standing back bridge to squeeze out the last 6 reps of every set.
Brian
Theres a big difference between the clown whos doing flys with 80s and about to separate his shoulder and the bodybuilder doing barbell cheating curls.
Bad form depends on what the person is trying to do. There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing partial reps (board presses, floor presses, etc).
Bad form is when someone is supposed to be doing regular bench press but does half reps and lets their butt go 10 feet off the bench. These type of people also consider the weights they are handling when they do this their bench max.
It is like a powerlifter telling everyone his 4 board press weight but saying it is his regular bench weight.
Fiatlux,
Like i said, it's a matter of experience. Once you've coached people of all different proportions and abilities in a variety of tasks, you'll get the feel for it.
-doug-
~Is there a logic behind why the biggest people in the gym have the worst form generally speaking?
I'd say that lots of people who are really big use steroids. They don't really need to keep their form perfect, so they don't. People who are natural and big are 1) few 2) got there by knowing what they're doing.
I see more small people at the gym with bad form than big people.