BASE= most important in jj.

Underground BJJ Ground
41

Hi Robert,
Thanks for your reply. I understood what you were saying, and I don't mean to nit-pick (ok, maybe I do!) but what you are describing is still not leverage. Leverage is leverage. There is no special-meaning for leverage for BJJ. You are talking about simply putting your body in an ideal position and controlling your opponent in an effective way to apply the leverage (use of a lever movement).

Your decription/definition of leverage thus coud be applied to ANY sport or any 'work' that a body does.

I am just being picky. But leverage is the most over-used word in BJJ. BJJ is NOT about'leverage' just as it is not about 'base'. There is nothing special about BJJ as compared to other physical activity. You sometimes will use leverage (use of a lever to perform some type of work) and every physical movement one can do in almost any context, requires what is known as 'base'.

I think the problem I have with all of this is that BJJ instructors try to make BJJ sound more 'efficent' and/or scientific - it is not. Efficiency is simply is performing the activity you want in an economized way to get a desired result.

But a good attempt at fleshing all of this out robert!

FlyingSpaghMon

42

great stuff robert!

43

FlyingSpaghMon said:

"Robert...what you are describing is still not leverage. Leverage is leverage. There is no special-meaning for leverage for BJJ. You are talking about simply putting your body in an ideal position and controlling your opponent in an effective way to apply the leverage (use of a lever movement). Your decription/definition of leverage thus coud be applied to ANY sport or any 'work' that a body does."

This is so true. Leverage is leverage. It meaning DOES NOT change with every given sport or activity. Again this is prime example of some people making more of certain things and complicating them to the Nth degree.

Leverage is USED in darn near every single physical activity and sport the human body performs. This is because the human body is made up of LEVERS. Heck, even the very act of walking or getting out of a chair involves leverage. If people knew about and understood both human physiology/anatomy and physic/biomechanics would have no problems with leverage and base in regards to defining it and wouldn't make such a big deal out of it.

44

Roll with any of the top BJJ guys and you'll know what base is!! lol

45

"It meaning DOES NOT change with every given sport or activity. Again this is prime example of some people making more of certain things and complicating them to the Nth degree."

I think there are a few people whos "snake-oil-radar" is turned up way too high. There is a difference between overcomplication and analysis.

And I'm not sure why you don't see how leverage plays a role? And of course leverage plays a part in all sports, as does base etc. However what is important for each of these qualities changes depending on the sport.

A Basketball players base isn't to prevent him from being swept or submitted etc, it's for stable but agile movement across the court etc. The principles are the same, but the application is different. This isn't overcomplicating things, its pure observation.

46

Base is what makes my 135 pound black belt friend feel like he ways 250.

Base is what kills your sweep the moment you attempt it.

Base is what allows someone to fling their body in the air while passing your open guard and YET keep you pinned to the mat by the only part of their body making contact with yours.

Base is an understanding of where your weight needs to be applied to reduce your opponent's options. Saulo discusses this at length, though he uses different terminology at times.

47

robert, don't get your panties in a bunch! ;)

The problem is, again, that people think that BJJ is unique for its emphasis on leverage. Indeed, a big selling of BJJ was (paraphrased), "BJJ is desgned for the smaller person to defeat a bigger as it does not reply upon strength, but rather upon leverage".

Both of the concepts are incorrect. Notice how statements like this try to show that somehow BJJ is unique and different.

I could modify boxing, TKD, wrestling, May Thai, Gugn Fu, soccer, tennis, etc. and make the same claim in order to distinguish myself from other arts and still be incorrect.

Like I said, I do not wish to nit-pick, but these terms are used ad nauseum in BJJ without the speaker having any idea of what they are talking about.

Maybe a better statement would be, "In BJJ we try not use techniques in which you would need to overpower your opponent, but instead we should you how to position and balance our body most efficiently in order to control your opponent so you may apply a submission hold".

48

My panties aren't in a twist, I just checked them and they're doing fine thank you very much.

"The problem is, again, that people think that BJJ is unique for its emphasis on leverage"

I agree that this is a total and complete mistake. BJJ is not unique in that it's emphasis is on more leverage or whatnot - the only uniqueness is in it's specific application.

Leverage, Base, Posture etc are equally important in any other sport - but the expression of these qualities is different.

BJJ is not some magic bullet for the small guy against bigger opponents, although it can be thought of as an effective "bag of tricks" against unskilled opponents. The same can be said of other combat sports however so again - it's all down to improving your physical attributes through hard work, and improving your technique through hard work.

Discussing Base, Posture, Leverage etc is simply a way of concentrating these training efforts.

49

this wreaks of inventing the internet.

posture and base have been in the english vernacular longer than roy has been alive.

come off it... as good as he is, this is bs.

50

Empire,

While we had left that topic back aways, I find it humorous when people use the ol' "inventing the internet" phrase. And in this case, I think it is strangely appropriate.

It speaks to the Steve Colbert idea of "truthiness"--that people will believe a story not because it is factual, but because it sounds like the story we expect to hear.

The famous "Al Gore claimed he invented the internet" story is like this. Gore said, in a 1999 CNN interview, "I took the initiative in creating the internet", and at another time, I believe he claimed credit for coining the term "information superhighway".

THESE ARE BOTH CORRECT--back when he was a senator in the late 80's, he was responsible for introducing a bill (known as the "Gore Bill", though its real title was the High Performance Computing and Communication Act of 1991) that helped fund and develop early internet companies and ISPs. In fact, he had been pushing such ideas since the late 1970's, and wrote an article on the future potential of the internet in Scientific American.

But when Gore made those two statements during his 1993 campaign, the media flipped out...mostly because none of them were interested in seeing if it was TRUE. They assumed he was making an outlandish claim.

Because it's a better story to say "some politican claimed that he invented the internet", that's the story that people remember, rather than remember that he (1) claimed to have pushed the internet into widespread availability, and (2) actually did it. Instead, the idea that he said something ridiculous has a certain Colbertian truthiness.

I find it ironic that you would post that after a discussion in which I've written a similar claim (that Roy Harris was the first to answer BJJ questions online, and that in so doing first used the term "posture" to describe the positioning of one's arms and upper body in an inferior BJJ position), and gotten a similar response (What? You think Roy Harris invented the English word "posture"? You're crazy!).

Cheers.

~Chris

51

PS - What crazy thing will I say next? That leglocks were not originally part of BJJ?

52

*Leverage, Base, Posture etc are equally important in any other sport - but the expression of these qualities is different. *

Exactly. That is what I have been saying . :) Thr problem is that the Gracies use the term "leverage" to differenetiate themselves from other arts. And their main marketing push was that the smaller guy could defeat the bigger guy because unlike onther arts, BJJ uses leverage. I think, in fact, Rorion states something similar on his tapes.

Twinkletoes,
I think you are correct. But I DO know that word 'posture' was used as a verb in BJJ circa 1994, because one BJJ guy told us to always "posture up" in guard.

However, the use of the word "posture" as a noun (it is important to get the correct posture while on the bottom", I did not hear before Roy Harris used it.

53

FSM,

That's all I've been saying. Thanks. :)

~TT

54

Excellent thread. But more discussion of mechanics, less of semantics.

55

Kbits,

You said: "M.g will be on shortly to tell me I'm making things too complicated."

Well...you know that is one of my primary functions in life.

You also said: "M.g. being Mr Semantics again. I swear, sometimes you write just to impress us :). You're smart and educated, we get it. So are we."

LOL!!!!!!!! Well...all I can say is I am a disagreeable person when it comes to certain things.

You also said: "If you know how 'base' is developed in other sports, then what advice would you give to someone who wants to develop 'base' in BJJ? Let's put that big brain of yours to task and get some useful training concepts out of you, beyond 'oh, I've seen that before. You guys are slow'."

Come on, give me some credit. I don't always admonish people with "I've seen that before" or "you guys are slow" (I only do that when someone "tries" to make it seem as if what they're doing is so unique and new) I do post some useful training tips. In fact forum member stickgrappler posted some of wall drills (drills I do to develop dexterity and mobility for the guard) on his website.

I actually make up alot of drills which are center around developing certain qualities like base etc. My philosophy, which was heavily influenced by my first martial arts teacher, is to develop the qualities and attributes that make a technique work along with the mechanics of a given technique. I figure if I can create or establish base, positioning, timing, leverage, efficient movement, movement transition, etc by simply moving and positioning my body then I can do any technique no matter how complicated. I figure I could also naturally adjust and adapt any technique to fit situation. So I focus most of my practice time on developing those things (base, positioning, timing, leverage, etc) more than I focus on the details of any given technique.

How I develop this stuff is mostly through simply drills. Sometimes I'll use basic techniques to drill certain qualities/attributes. I've realized that some techniques, particularly some very basics ones, don't have high combative value but do have very high attribute development value.

One drill I use to develop base while in someones guard is actually a drill I derived from a Rickson training video and a German Judo drill video. This drill can be setup many ways. It requires a bicycle tire innertube and a sturdy object like a tree, pole or even the door jam...

This post is getting too long let me continue it in another post.

56

What about isolation? You can't apply leverage until you've isolated the limb.

 

 

 

 

 

LOL, I really don't give a damn, but stirring the pot is funny.

Le Shat

57

base is what makes Xande so, so heavy when you train with him!

58

Kbits,

Continuing from my last post:

I would take the bicycle tire innertube (actually I use a product called the Abband and mount it to the door jam) and mount it to the bottom of a tree/pole. I would than either attach the innertube to a weight belt and put on the weight belt or attach it to a headgear and put on the head gear or attach it to either my waist or head bare.

I would than move far away from the tree/pole, far enough to create strong tension on the innertube (tension that is actually pulling you forward). I would then get on my knees as if I was in someones guard and position my body so that it won't be pulled forward and off balance. Sometimes I would get up, one leg at a time, just like I would do if I was in someones guard. (when I do this I usually put my hands behind my head). There is alot of things you could do while in this position, most of them you'll naturally figure out. The goal or objective is to simply keep your base.

Another drill I do to work on base is actually more of a base/transition drill. I would use the same setup as described above except this time I'd work on getting up in base (something I am sure most Bjjers know how to do). I would make sure there is good tension on the innertube before I got up into base because when I am actually on my feet I want to practice "keeping" my base/balance. The pull of the innertube forces me to lower my center of gravity and adjust my stance.

Now to add to that drill I would sometime either do a penetration step or a sprawl after I got up in base. This is good for developing transition.

Incidently sprawling and penetration stepping is done depending on which direction I am facing. If I am facing in the same direction as the tension of the innertube (i.e the innertube is attach to me via my front) then I'll do sprawls. If I am facing away from the tension of the innertube (i.e the innertube is attached to me via my back) then I'll do penetration steps.

These are just two ways I drill base. I have more.

59

m.g. I like those drills, will have to jury rig something in the gym!

Oh and Kbits, I can easily stand up from a chair with my head not leaving my knees, does this make me strange?

60

'base is what makes Xande so, so heavy when you train with him!'

I'll drink to that! LOL.