Kirik - Camoes was in control, not Batman. Camoes had every opportunity to let go and protect his head. He chose to land on his own head, The rule as it stands is correct.
Would be totally different if Pellegrino did a pile driver or something.
Are you missing the point where I said Camoes was in control? This is not about whether it was legal or illegal. It is perfectly legal ...............and it is WRONG and too Dangerous............
Camoes did not have time to react. He didn't <i><b>decide </b></i>to land on his own head. He was probably just caught by surprise.
I teach that move in my gym and I am sure everyone else does too - if you slam back, try to work him down, if you slam forward, try to get him forward. Camoes knew it was a possibility, and had the opportunity to release the choke and block with his forearm, but he chose not to.
Happens all the time in Judo - guys opt to head plant to avoid the ippon. Camoes took the head plant to keep the choke, and as a consequence, he went out. Same thing happens with arm bars, You can hold the arm bar and be dropped on your head.
I am a hug believer in safe rules, and have done some work to forward that effort, but people have a responsibility for their own safety, too.
So with that logic eye pokes should be allowed when trading strikes.
Basically, you know you might get poked if you take a strike to the face, so a fighter should be responsible to get out of the way of strikes to the head, considering a poke might occur.
Or striking should be banned in fear that an eye poke may occur...
Kirik - Camoes was in control, not Batman. Camoes had every opportunity to let go and protect his head. He chose to land on his own head, The rule as it stands is correct.
Would be totally different if Pellegrino did a pile driver or something.
Are you missing the point where I said Camoes was in control? This is not about whether it was legal or illegal. It is perfectly legal ...............and it is WRONG and too Dangerous............
Camoes did not have time to react. He didn't decide to land on his own head. He was probably just caught by surprise.
I teach that move in my gym and I am sure everyone else does too - if you slam back, try to work him down, if you slam forward, try to get him forward. Camoes knew it was a possibility, and had the opportunity to release the choke and block with his forearm, but he chose not to.
Happens all the time in Judo - guys opt to head plant to avoid the ippon. Camoes took the head plant to keep the choke, and as a consequence, he went out. Same thing happens with arm bars, You can hold the arm bar and be dropped on your head.
I am a hug believer in safe rules, and have done some work to forward that effort, but people have a responsibility for their own safety, too.
And if you believe that then why don't I see you on all my other threads calling for the legalization of soccer kicks, 12-6 elbows, the wearing of different types of Gi's and knees to the head of a downed opponent? Do you believe that spiking someone on the top of their head is less dangerous?
I don't think soccer kicks add a hugely dangerous element to the game, but I don't think a Western audience is ever going to accept them.
I don't believe in the 12-6 elbow rule.
I think gis make the sport look unprofessional.
I think knees to the head of a downed opponent are quite dangerous; I am fine with them being out of the sport.
Getting spiked is indeed dangerous. Camoes was momentarily out from it. The central element in the rule, and I apologize for my inability to communicate this, is one of responsibility for your own safety. If you control your position, and someone spikes you, if you choose to not release the arm bar, choke, etc, then the reposnsibility for what happens lies on you. Guys seld spike in Judo all the time.
Kirik - Camoes was in control, not Batman. Camoes had every opportunity to let go and protect his head. He chose to land on his own head, The rule as it stands is correct.
Would be totally different if Pellegrino did a pile driver or something.
Are you missing the point where I said Camoes was in control? This is not about whether it was legal or illegal. It is perfectly legal ...............and it is WRONG and too Dangerous............
Camoes did not have time to react. He didn't <i><b>decide </b></i>to land on his own head. He was probably just caught by surprise.
I teach that move in my gym and I am sure everyone else does too - if you slam back, try to work him down, if you slam forward, try to get him forward. Camoes knew it was a possibility, and had the opportunity to release the choke and block with his forearm, but he chose not to.
Happens all the time in Judo - guys opt to head plant to avoid the ippon. Camoes took the head plant to keep the choke, and as a consequence, he went out. Same thing happens with arm bars, You can hold the arm bar and be dropped on your head.
I am a hug believer in safe rules, and have done some work to forward that effort, but people have a responsibility for their own safety, too.
And if you believe that then why don't I see you on all my other threads calling for the legalization of soccer kicks, 12-6 elbows, the wearing of different types of Gi's and knees to the head of a downed opponent? Do you believe that spiking someone on the top of their head is less dangerous?
I don't think soccer kicks add a hugely dangerous element to the game, but I don't think a Western audience is ever going to accept them.
I don't believe in the 12-6 elbow rule.
I think gis make the sport look unprofessional.
I think knees to the head of a downed opponent are quite dangerous; I am fine with them being out of the sport.
Getting spiked is indeed dangerous. Camoes was momentarily out from it. The central element in the rule, and I apologize for my inability to communicate this, is one of responsibility for your own safety. If you control your position, and someone spikes you, if you choose to not release the arm bar, choke, etc, then the reposnsibility for what happens lies on you. Guys seld spike in Judo all the time.
You keep saying this shit as if the guy had ample time to react to being spiked. That's not the fucking case.
I can not fucking believe your stance on this shit. You usually come across as someone who really thinks through what he's going to post before he does, someone who's always putting logic before emotion. This is fucking ridiculous though. Not that it means fuck all to you coming from a mudnamer, but I have lost a lot of repesct for you reading your comments on this thread.
What Kurt did was completely in line with the rules. It's two black belts fighting people. Both have been in that position on both sides probably thousands of times. Both knew the stakes. Both knew what could happen. If Marango wanted, he could've easily let go and hopped down or changed his position. Instead, he wanted to hold on in hopes of getting the choke. Can't blame him. What Kurt did was smart and complete law abiding. Is it the safest thing to do in a ring (for both fighters)? Probably not.
To me, it's not different than any other move where a guy throws another. It is not the same as Sapp pile driving Nog or etc. It was self defense and not dirty. If you think it is unsafe and should be illegal, fine. But making a mountain out of a molehill is not the answer.
Hey Camoes, dont get too high on his back if you dont want to get dropped on your dome piece.
Not like everyone watching in the arena or at home didnt see the slam coming or wasnt yelling at the tv at their home, "fucking slam him kurt!" then he did, now everyone is angry. Camoes knew he was about to go for a ride, everyone saw it coming a mile away, he just chose to go for it rather than give up his position.
toshii - Foul: Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
Did Pellegrino spike Camoes's head on the canvas? Yes. End of story.
Taken from another thread on the subject
Rules variations Each organization determines its own rules (in accordance with government regulation). Below are some of the significant differences in the rules of the popular MMA organizations. Ultimate Fighting Championship
* Allows elbow strikes except downward elbow strikes with the point of the elbow. * Prohibits spiking a fighter onto his head during takedown or slam. * Prohibits stomps, soccer kicks and knees to the head of a grounded opponent (more than feet touching ground). A fighter on the ground can kick upwards at their opponent's head only if their opponent is standing. * Prohibits shoes, shirts and pants. * Uses three 5-minute rounds. Championship bouts are five 5-minute rounds. * No longer uses a tournament format. * Has five weight classes: Heavyweight (<265 lbs), Light Heavyweight (<205 lbs), Middleweight (<185 lbs), and Welterweight (<170 lbs) a Lightweight (<155 lbs) class. * Tests fighters for steroids and other illegal substances in championship bouts.
Kirik - Camoes was in control, not Batman. Camoes had every opportunity to let go and protect his head. He chose to land on his own head, The rule as it stands is correct.
Would be totally different if Pellegrino did a pile driver or something.
Are you missing the point where I said Camoes was in control? This is not about whether it was legal or illegal. It is perfectly legal ...............and it is WRONG and too Dangerous............
Camoes did not have time to react. He didn't <i><b>decide </b></i>to land on his own head. He was probably just caught by surprise.
I teach that move in my gym and I am sure everyone else does too - if you slam back, try to work him down, if you slam forward, try to get him forward. Camoes knew it was a possibility, and had the opportunity to release the choke and block with his forearm, but he chose not to.
Happens all the time in Judo - guys opt to head plant to avoid the ippon. Camoes took the head plant to keep the choke, and as a consequence, he went out. Same thing happens with arm bars, You can hold the arm bar and be dropped on your head.
I am a hug believer in safe rules, and have done some work to forward that effort, but people have a responsibility for their own safety, too.
And if you believe that then why don't I see you on all my other threads calling for the legalization of soccer kicks, 12-6 elbows, the wearing of different types of Gi's and knees to the head of a downed opponent? Do you believe that spiking someone on the top of their head is less dangerous?
I don't think soccer kicks add a hugely dangerous element to the game, but I don't think a Western audience is ever going to accept them.
I don't believe in the 12-6 elbow rule.
I think gis make the sport look unprofessional.
I think knees to the head of a downed opponent are quite dangerous; I am fine with them being out of the sport.
Getting spiked is indeed dangerous. Camoes was momentarily out from it. The central element in the rule, and I apologize for my inability to communicate this, is one of responsibility for your own safety. If you control your position, and someone spikes you, if you choose to not release the arm bar, choke, etc, then the reposnsibility for what happens lies on you. Guys seld spike in Judo all the time.
You keep saying this shit as if the guy had ample time to react to being spiked. That's not the fucking case.
I can not fucking believe your stance on this shit. You usually come across as someone who really thinks through what he's going to post before he does, someone who's always putting logic before emotion. This is fucking ridiculous though. Not that it means fuck all to you coming from a mudnamer, but I have lost a lot of repesct for you reading your comments on this thread.
Good day.
This has been an accepted rule in our sport for about ten years. I have cornered in the UFC, had it exaplained to me persoanlly, by Herb Dean. I have had it explained to me by a number of other refs. I have reffed 100s of fights, and have explained this rule to many thousnds of people.
I am not puting emotion before logic here. This is what I have believed for a decade or more. It is the acepted practice in our sport.
Kirik - Camoes was in control, not Batman. Camoes had every opportunity to let go and protect his head. He chose to land on his own head, The rule as it stands is correct.
Would be totally different if Pellegrino did a pile driver or something.
Are you missing the point where I said Camoes was in control? This is not about whether it was legal or illegal. It is perfectly legal ...............and it is WRONG and too Dangerous............
Camoes did not have time to react. He didn't decide to land on his own head. He was probably just caught by surprise.
I teach that move in my gym and I am sure everyone else does too - if you slam back, try to work him down, if you slam forward, try to get him forward. Camoes knew it was a possibility, and had the opportunity to release the choke and block with his forearm, but he chose not to.
Happens all the time in Judo - guys opt to head plant to avoid the ippon. Camoes took the head plant to keep the choke, and as a consequence, he went out. Same thing happens with arm bars, You can hold the arm bar and be dropped on your head.
I am a hug believer in safe rules, and have done some work to forward that effort, but people have a responsibility for their own safety, too.
And if you believe that then why don't I see you on all my other threads calling for the legalization of soccer kicks, 12-6 elbows, the wearing of different types of Gi's and knees to the head of a downed opponent? Do you believe that spiking someone on the top of their head is less dangerous?
I don't think soccer kicks add a hugely dangerous element to the game, but I don't think a Western audience is ever going to accept them.
I don't believe in the 12-6 elbow rule.
I think gis make the sport look unprofessional.
I think knees to the head of a downed opponent are quite dangerous; I am fine with them being out of the sport.
Getting spiked is indeed dangerous. Camoes was momentarily out from it. The central element in the rule, and I apologize for my inability to communicate this, is one of responsibility for your own safety. If you control your position, and someone spikes you, if you choose to not release the arm bar, choke, etc, then the reposnsibility for what happens lies on you. Guys seld spike in Judo all the time.
Do Gi's make Olympic Judo look unprofessional? I think Condom Depot.com on fighter's asses makes the sport look unprofessional. I think Dana White's disgusting rants make the sport look unprofessional. Should they be banned?
A western audience who watches bloodbaths as we have seen on TUF quite a few seasons ago (Edwin Dewees) or Miguel Torres' cut would have no problem accepting stomps, kicks and knees to a downed opponent. The problem is you have Lorenzo Fertitta putting a lot of time, money and effort to make sure people feel otherwise. I can't imagine sakuraba-esque flying stomps NOT being a highlight of a UFC event where the crowd erupts in cheers and applause.
I am surprised by your stance on knees though. How do you feel they are more dangerous than a perfectly legal slam where the fighter lands on his spine and the back of his head?
bigwignj - Kurt was never taking him down or slamming him
No one is questioning the legality of the move. It is legal. It is also too dangerous. Eliminate spiking a fighter's head and give me back stomps, soccer kicks and knees on the ground. Please.
I am saying this to point out the absurdity of this forum. Everyone cringed but thought it was an exciting move last night, yet you have SO MANY who scream that soccer kicks will end the life of many fighters should they be legal. It is nothing but NONSENSE....
Kirik - Camoes was in control, not Batman. Camoes had every opportunity to let go and protect his head. He chose to land on his own head, The rule as it stands is correct.
Would be totally different if Pellegrino did a pile driver or something.
Are you missing the point where I said Camoes was in control? This is not about whether it was legal or illegal. It is perfectly legal ...............and it is WRONG and too Dangerous............
Camoes did not have time to react. He didn't decide to land on his own head. He was probably just caught by surprise.
I teach that move in my gym and I am sure everyone else does too - if you slam back, try to work him down, if you slam forward, try to get him forward. Camoes knew it was a possibility, and had the opportunity to release the choke and block with his forearm, but he chose not to.
Happens all the time in Judo - guys opt to head plant to avoid the ippon. Camoes took the head plant to keep the choke, and as a consequence, he went out. Same thing happens with arm bars, You can hold the arm bar and be dropped on your head.
I am a hug believer in safe rules, and have done some work to forward that effort, but people have a responsibility for their own safety, too.
And if you believe that then why don't I see you on all my other threads calling for the legalization of soccer kicks, 12-6 elbows, the wearing of different types of Gi's and knees to the head of a downed opponent? Do you believe that spiking someone on the top of their head is less dangerous?
I don't think soccer kicks add a hugely dangerous element to the game, but I don't think a Western audience is ever going to accept them.
I don't believe in the 12-6 elbow rule.
I think gis make the sport look unprofessional.
I think knees to the head of a downed opponent are quite dangerous; I am fine with them being out of the sport.
Getting spiked is indeed dangerous. Camoes was momentarily out from it. The central element in the rule, and I apologize for my inability to communicate this, is one of responsibility for your own safety. If you control your position, and someone spikes you, if you choose to not release the arm bar, choke, etc, then the reposnsibility for what happens lies on you. Guys seld spike in Judo all the time.
Do Gi's make Olympic Judo look unprofessional? I think Condom Depot.com on fighter's asses makes the sport look unprofessional. I think Dana White's disgusting rants make the sport look unprofessional. Should they be banned?
A western audience who watches bloodbaths as we have seen on TUF quite a few seasons ago (Edwin Dewees) or Miguel Torres' cut would have no problem accepting stomps, kicks and knees to a downed opponent. The problem is you have Lorenzo Fertitta putting a lot of time, money and effort to make sure people feel otherwise. I can't imagine sakuraba-esque flying stomps NOT being a highlight of a UFC event where the crowd erupts in cheers and applause.
I am surprised by your stance on knees though. How do you feel they are more dangerous than a perfectly legal slam where the fighter lands on his spine and the back of his head?
I am happy to answer all questions, but you need to chill out a little bit. As i frequently shout from the corner - BREATHE :-)
Kirik - This has been an accepted rule in our sport for about ten years. I have cornered in the UFC, had it exaplained to me persoanlly, by Herb Dean. I have had it explained to me by a number of other refs. I have reffed 100s of fights, and have explained this rule to many thousnds of people.
I am not puting emotion before logic here. This is what I have believed for a decade or more. It is the acepted practice in our sport.
You kind of swear a lot.
Yes, I do swear a lot. Not all the time, but I care quite a bit about this matter.
It does look like I was implying you were putting emotion first, but that wasn't my intention. Bad wording on my behalf. I was just trying to convey my thoughts on who you come across as, and the respect I had/have for you.
I understand what the rules are, I am not trying to debate whether it was legal or not. Regardless of how many fights you've been involved in, and what Herb Dean has told you, I think the fact of the matter is this:
A fighter shouldn't have to choose between giving up a dominant position and having his neck broken. I think spiking someone like this, regardless of position, is just far too risky. It could end someone's career, it could completely change their life, or even end it. I know that pretty much any technique involved in MMA could also have those effects, but I truly believe this technique has a higher chance of doing so. A high enough chance, in comparison, that it should be banned.
I know I went a bit overboard flipping out at you earlier, but as someone who trains and hopes to compete I feel very strongly about these things. I still think you're wrong, but would like to apologize for the filthy language and lack of respect I showed you in my previous post.
This has been an accepted rule in our sport for about ten years. I have cornered in the UFC, had it exaplained to me persoanlly, by Herb Dean. I have had it explained to me by a number of other refs. I have reffed 100s of fights, and have explained this rule to many thousnds of people.
I am not puting emotion before logic here. This is what I have believed for a decade or more. It is the acepted practice in our sport.
You kind of swear a lot.
Yes, I do swear a lot. Not all the time, but I care quite a bit about this matter.
It does look like I was implying you were putting emotion first, but that wasn't my intention. Bad wording on my behalf. I was just trying to convey my thoughts on who you come across as, and the respect I had/have for you.
I understand what the rules are, I am not trying to debate whether it was legal or not. Regardless of how many fights you've been involved in, and what Herb Dean has told you, I think the fact of the matter is this:
A fighter shouldn't have to choose between giving up a dominant position and having his neck broken. I think spiking someone like this, regardless of position, is just far too risky. It could end someone's career, it could completely change their life, or even end it. I know that pretty much any technique involved in MMA could also have those effects, but I truly believe this technique has a higher chance of doing so. A high enough chance, in comparison, that it should be banned.
I know I went a bit overboard flipping out at you earlier, but as someone who trains and hopes to compete I feel very strongly about these things. I still think you're wrong, but would like to apologize for the filthy language and lack of respect I showed you in my previous post.
No harm no foul :-)
That is tremendous you are planning on competing. I appreciate too your passion for safety.
I would prefer to re frame the debate, and try to focus on getting fighters to consider and avoid dangerous situations, rather than keep an armbar, or a choke and land on the head. This is an old debate to Judo, in their case whether or not to land on the head rather than risk losing by ippon.
It needs to be communicated that safety rules require responsibility by both parties. One fighter cannot strike to the back of the head, but the other fighter cannot turn and take a shot to the back of the head that was intended for the face. A fighter cannot be spiked, but the other fighter cannot hold a controlling position that ends up with him landing on his head.
Safety rules demand responsible behavior by both men in the cage.
I DEFINITELY understand the cause for concern. I am a greco wrestler who has had to contend with the reverse lift rule from a few years back that was recently changed over the last year or so. With the reverse lift, it can be either be a throw or be turned around for a pile-driver like motion. Now, my biggest concern would be stopping the move cause I don't want to get scored on or teched, but the other part of me used to be like "wow, I wonder if I am gonna get my neck broken one day. ' But I love the sport so much so that if that's what happens, I know the risk and am willing to take it. I'm guessing most athletes are educated and dedicated enough to understand these risks themselves.
I don't know if you can amend the rule for the situation last night. First off, it was not a dirty or unethical move. It was an astute and semi-common technique. It would've been one thing if Kurt was had complete control of his opponent but he didn't. If anything, he was throwing himself down and face-planting as much as he was throwing Marango. Actually finding a way to regulate that kind of situation would be unfair and probably counterproductive IMO.
that move is wayyyy more dangerous than knees to a grounded opponent or soccer kicks..if someone dies from mma realted injuries, it will be from something like this...you could EASILY break your neck with this type of move
and yes, i think it is the intent of the person on bottom to spike the head of he guy on top
thforklift - Actually finding a way to regulate that kind of situation would be unfair and probably counterproductive IMO. <br type="_moz" />
It would be simple. You can't drive your opponent head first into the ground (spike), by any means, including using a sacrifice throw. What Kurt did was intentional and he could have chose not to, hence avoiding great risk to his opponent, which could have resulted in paralysis or worse.
I guess we choose to see it differently. I saw it as Kurt doing anything he could do to win without cheating and you see it as Kurt trying to paralyze his opponent.