BB in 3 yrs with privates???

what club was this?

Reylson Gracie in Las Vegas Nevada.

There are 2 websites www.reylsongracie.com and one that looks a little older but has a Q&A is www.reylsongracie.tripod.com

Chango

If you train hard and compete aswell... do alot of classes...say 6 a week and a couple of privates a week aswell and of corse your diet is good.... you will have to stop parting to much and the big one you some how manage to avoid injury in this time I at a push coulds say you could do it in 5 years..... but you know you would have to be rich to do this as you would find it hard to hold a job down and for those 5 years you will ache alot of the time... I think this is a break neck speed to get the bb unless you are a guy like Penn or Serra... and of corse you would have to have a top instructor.

But as you say it can never hurt you to have as many privates and do as many classes as possible.

great thread !

Kneeblock,

Definately not a troll. Things like this often provide interesting discussions, regardless of which side of the topic you are on.

I have googled Reylson Gracie, before I started the thread. To be fair, while he seems very money oriented, and there is some negativity, I would not completely condemn him just yet.

1 There seems to be an issue of a letter written by a former student requesting a refund in 2006 in the amount of $600 for lessons he didn't take and a counter letter by Relson/manager for a sum of $340 that he believes the student agreed to. This is only ONE letter that appears in MULTIPLE places on multiple websites.

2 There are many different accounts of Rodrigo demotion when training with Renzo. 1.) he demoted himself because he felt like he didn't deserve to be a bb 2.)He demoted himself to learn some techniques that Renzos BB's perform(sport/mma) before becoming a bb. 3) Renzo demoted him until he knew those aformentioned techniques of his other bb's. I don't really know which is correct

3 Testimonials on a website (Reylsons site) are worthless. Obviuosly your only going put the best on there or even make it up. I never trust website testimonials, prefering to get a larger sampling of opinions like the ones found here.

Reylson is the Gracie I hear least about. He is obviously one of the highest ranking and that had to come from Carlos or Helio or they would never allow it and you would hear desparaging commentary from others in the Gracie clan.

He was along time instructor of Joe Moereira(sp?) whom is generally well respected. I know they did have a falling out when Joe came to the US and maybe there was some misunderstandings regarding scope of resposibility or money. I don't know.

There is also the Gene Simco belt buying debacle. This can go either way. Gene gets a brown from Reylson then drops him. Maybe Reylson sold the belt. Maybe Gene was legitimately evaluated and Reylson genuinely wanted him to be a representative but wanted to much in fees, so Gene dropped him. I realize that anything that Simco is involved in is suspect, but remeber he did the same to Michael Jen, and Jen is well respected.

I wouldn't call any of this damning, but worth looking into. Alot of this can be chalked up ot BJJ politics, which we have all seen.

Either way I'm very happy with my instruction, but this makes excellent debate and has provided insight to others thoughts on what is required of a bb.

I'm curious for you thoughts.

Sorry for the FRAT.

chango

Didn't BJ Penn get his bb in 3 years through multiple training sessions and everyday privates?

His bb is legit. fo sho'

If he can do it, why not others?

"If he can do it, why not others?"

Because he is BJ Penn. He's a phenom, he is not like the overwhelming majority of people who practice BJJ.

BJ has his own rules when it comes to bjj the rest of us have the normal ones.

To be honest all BJ did for 3.5 years was eat drink sleep bjj he did nothing else.... he said he was obssesed with the techs and thought about bjj 24/7 and little else he also was finacially sorted so he did not have to have a job while he trained... this all helpes towards progress..... I have read about 3 interviews that said this, so I asume it is true.

For the right person i thinks it's possible.The right person would be one of the 'special' people in terms of physical ability, mental ability.

Also don't look at training time in yrs, look at it in hours spent on the mat. Example, you train 3X a week for 2 hrs=6 hrs a week. 3X 8 hrs=24 hrs per week BIG difference.

Thanks kneeblock.

I'll cruise over to NHBGear and look through the archives.

I DO NOT doubt what you say. My google search produced alot junk with Reylson's name and directions to his school and yellow page and map sites, so it is entirely possible that I missed alot.

Let me ask another question. Let's just say that Reylson(while expensive) teaches legit GJJ. The same GJJ that Helio,Rorion,Valente's, Mansur etc. teach. These curriculums focus primarily on the self defense aspects of JJ and not competition(there are exceptions).

The self defense curriculum is far less extensive than the sport aspect. No fancy guards, half guards flying armbars/triangles, fancy guard passing, etc. Less focus on athleticism. Lets say it's just the 240 or so techniques that I read about in various places.

If you trained PRIVATELY, 3x a week for three years, surely you would master these things and perhaps be brown or black level. While you would never win NAGA's let alone Mundials or Pan Am's, does that make your bb any less than the guy who does sport training???

I'm in medicine. After 4 years of medical school, if you meet the minimum criteria, your a MD/DO. Some become family physicians/General Practioners, some train for 8 more years and become brain surgeons. Who is the better Doctor?

I find peoples thoughts on this very interesting.

Chango

Chango,

Good point- except Helio, Rorion, and the others you mentioned no longer only teach a curriculum that is self defense, or with only 240 techs like you mentioned. All of their black belts are very tough, and are able to prove their skills against comparably ranked people from different schools- friendly rolls, or competitions.

Thus, if you get a black belt in Reylson's curriculum but cannot pass the guard, sweep, or submit any higher ranking bjj opponents in anyone else's school, whats the value of that belt?

Sure you can be a master of his system, but it's a watered down system compared to everyone else's.

Carlson Gracie:   "Reylson is mentally retarded, crazy, and should be in a mental hospital. I have no answers for a famigerado (asshole/troublemaker)."

Kying418 makes an excellent point. Who wants to be a "Gracie Blackbelt" and go on vacation and visit another school and get your ass whipped by solid blues!!!

Eviladam: I know Carlson said it, but WHY???

Why the Reylson disdain??? I know it's there, but the rationale is elusive.

I read the archives at NHBgear as suggested by Kneeblock. When you boil it all down, there are no false claims, no selling of belts, and no larger than life profile.

It has been stated many times tha Reylson teaches a self defense form of jiu jitsu and those interested in sport or mma are directed, with his blessing, to others. Which addresses the Rodrigo matter.

In the Simco matter it has been clearly stated that Reylson said that if simco was awarded the Brown(by Fernando) that he should stay brown and Reylson would continue training him from that point, bringing along and asking him to pay for HIS system from that point forward.

It seems to always come down to: 1. Reylson likes money and charges too much, in most peoples opinions and 2. You don't get to roll early or often enough.

I like to roll. I also like to pursue alot of hobbies so I don't want to spend $1000 a month on private lessons. Many people agree. However, there is nothing deceitful or wrong about Reylson doing it for those that want to pursue it.

I can't find much mention or ANY reason for bitterness or feuding between Reylson and the rest of the clan.

Chango

"If you trained PRIVATELY, 3x a week for three years, surely you would master these things and perhaps be brown or black level."

No, you would not. Aside from the fact that IMO experience people who ONLY take private lessons are simply NOT as good as people who take Group classes, there is no such thing as a Black Belt in Gracie Self Defense Techniques. That is just one aspect of BJJ.

That would be like being a Black Belt in the Judo Katas.

It's already been said: Reylson turned to the dark side a long time ago. If people can't tell his school is an obvious money-making scam, there is no helping them.

"Kying418 makes an excellent point. Who wants to be a "Gracie Blackbelt" and go on vacation and visit another school and get your ass whipped by solid blues!!!"

Let me just say that I have the highest respect for a Gracie Blackbelt...its the Reylson Gracie blackbelt that may not be as good.

No, you would not. Aside from the fact that IMO experience people who ONLY take private lessons are simply NOT as good as people who take Group classes, there is no such thing as a Black Belt in Gracie Self Defense Techniques. That is just one aspect of BJJ.

That would be like being a Black Belt in the Judo Katas.

Shen, while I respect your opinion and tend to agree, I don't think this is entirely correct.

Reylson is teaching Gracie Jiu jitsu or "his families jiu jitsu" in its supposed original for FOR self defense. He could be teaching it FOR fighting or FOR mma, but he is not.

If you learned this "family jiu jitsu" 30 years ago and got a bb and didn't learn anything else, you would still be a bb in Gracie Jiu jitsu.

The fact that others have evolved into a larger, more diverse curriculum is desirable. It makes them better in my opinion. It does not change the fact these techniques were the core of the Gracie Family Jiujitsu for at least 30 years. *** that's kind of when I figure Rolls started to make innovations(maybe others, but he is the most notable innovator of the time)***

Faixa Rua: Thanks for posting that link. It appears in various places on various forums, but is always the same letter, not a bunch of different complaints.

It clearly shows that Reylson charges alot, and really wants to collect his due, but that is not immoral,illegal or unethical. Just GREEDY.

The part about white belts teaching white belts, while if true is clearly disingenous(Who the hell would pay that much to train with a white belt!!), but is uncoroberated anywhere else.

Chango

ChangoBravo,

One probably could "learn" all the techniques in a weekend --that's not the issue.

It's how functional you get with those techniques in 3-years (2x a week) that is the issue.

Reylson's BJJ (all GJJ/BJJ of that era) involved plenty of newaza/ rolling. I think you may be under the impression that it was just the Self-Defense curriculum they taught.

I've never trained with Reylson, but I have trained some with Prof. Alvaro Barreto (who's from the same era, actually a little older I believe). He is about as "Old School" as it gets and he teaches plenty of rolling, just like all BJJ teachers do. But also has a very comprehensive approach to the SD curriculum and "Judo" (as he calls takedowns).

No way you could get a Black Belt from Barreto in 3-years 2x a week!

The difference between Reylson & Barreto is Baretto is not a sell-out. It's not because "old school" BJJ is some how much easier to learn (due to a shorter syllabus) that Reylson will give Black Belts to people sooner, it's simply because he has gone McDojo.

I would agree. Time on the mat is the single most important thing.

I'm of the opinion that even if you only learned the fundamentals of bjj and then spent the rest of your time rolling with partners of various size and abilities, your skill would increase exponentially without ever taking another formal lesson. Just concentrate on your fundamentals and hone them ON THE MAT!

I didn't think it was possible for a Gracie to go McDojo, but evidence does kind of stack up.

Valente brothers, Professors Mansur,Barreto,Sauer, Rorion Gracie, Caique, Carlos Valente etc.etc. all teach what I would call "Old School" jiu jitsu. The Gracie jiu-jitsu that focuses on the self defenserather than the sport. There is no record or mention of any of them producing black belts in 3 years.

I enjoyed the debate, for the debates sake.

Chango

"I'm of the opinion that even if you only learned the fundamentals of bjj and then spent the rest of your time rolling with partners of various size and abilities, your skill would increase exponentially without ever taking another formal lesson. Just concentrate on your fundamentals and hone them ON THE MAT!"

This is an excellent point. I too believe that if one was rooted in the foundational (I like that term better than fundamental or basics) and if one consistently and persistently practice and drilled their skill would STILL increase exponentially even if one never took anohter formal class.

The world is full of such examples.

One of the reasons why I believe the above situation is possible is because of how people learn and perfect their talents and abilities.

see, people learn things from three primary sources:

1) teachers, coaches, mentors, instructors

2) peers, friends, classmates, associates

3) one's own experience and research

All are important but number three is always available even if the other two are absent or lacking.

And if one has an inquistive and discerning mind one will ALWAYS discover and learn something everytime one practices what they know and have already learned even if there is no there to help them.

Now I'm not saying one can completely learning everything on ones own. I am not advocating isolation. Everybody needs somebody. What I am saying is one can still improve even apart from the help of others.

Bjj, in my opinion, isn't that hard or complicated that one needs strict formal instruction and hours of supervision.

Reylson Gracie has never even trained bjj himself.