this is a question aimed at higher belts who often train with beginners or white belts.
often, i find myself training with a beginner (say <6months) and they continually pull guard only to have me pass like its non-existant and then i knee ride and basically submit them any number of ways.
its at this point where i try to "advise" them that playing guard isnt recommended for beginners as playing off the back is a harder skill to develop than trying to work on top. also in most fight situations, u always want to be theguy on top and in nogi, its always preferrable to be on top, so i have heard.
i try to tell them that they need to develop good posture and base first in their top game before trying to develop a guard game. in a perfect world, developing both would be great, but with bjj, more often than not, the first 6 months are spent flat on ur back getting smashed.
so, do u believe that teaching a top game is important for beginners first, or should i just keep smashing their puny guard until they slowly get better?
You should practice both top & bottom from the get-go.
One could become a great "top game" player, but when they finally start playing bottom (as they will have to), they will STILL get smashed.
No way around it: part of BJJ is getting smashed until you get the skills to avoid, defend it & counter it.
"You should practice both top & bottom from the get-go."
AGREE'D
However emphasis should be on positional escapes.
i know all too well that u should practice both top and bottom, however, for many people, especially beginners, ending up on bottom and getting hammered is very discouraging and its this negative effect that leads many to quit.
thats why i advise developing top initially then developing the bottom. im not saying ignore the bottom completely.
walbjj,
I am sure I am in the minority here but I used to argue your point all the time. I had been told I would probably change my way of thinking but so far I haven't.
My reasoning is exactly like yours: It seems that beginners are taught to pull guard from the beginning and it is a much easier mind set for them to pull guard once they get in trouble, so that is what they do.
A wrestler, on the other hand, will attack anytime they get in trouble or the guy gives them a little space. In MMA you want to be on top, in a fight you want to be on top, and in many tournaments you want to be on top. (Often the agressor will be considered the guy on top in a virtual tie.)
You can watch match after match and tell the difference in a wrestler vs a traditional bjj guy as soon as there is a scramble. The bjj guy will be moving to his back if you give him a little space and the wrestler will be driving forward to take top.
I believe it is much easier to take a guy who learns to play top from the beginning and teach him the bottom game than it is to take a guard puller and teach him to take top when someone gives him space or tries to drive him to his back.
So my theory has been for the first 2-3 months a beginner should be taught to attack, get top, keep position, work submissions.
As Shen said he will end up on bottom, so why not teach them to escape from bottom in the first two to three months instead of to fight from bottom as cdog is suggesting?
The idea is to develop the mind set to take top and attack instead of pull guard at the first sign of trouble.
Good thread.....
I'm curious...when you guys work with beginners do you generally just dominate them? While I pretty much suck at BJJ I have done it long enough to dominate most beginners that come in.
I try to go as relaxed as I can and switch positions a lot while pointing things out conversationally. Like WaltBJJ said...I don't want their first time or two to be miserable. And hey...at 41 the 21 yo I dominate today has the luxury of training 5 days a week and one day returning the favor!
I might have side....pull mount for a bit and then transition to guard allowing them to work top while explaining they should try to pass at this point (noting to them that they will learn various passes later...and that everyone started confused and relatively helpless).
Am I being too nice here?
I think sometimes there's no choice involved. If you're smaller than a lot of your training partners or not as strong, you're going to be playing guard a lot until you can get good enough at it to force other positions. If you're bigger or stronger, you may end up on top more often, so you learn top game first. Then you have to force yourself to learn guard as well.
I was a lot smaller than my training partners when I first started, so my progression went guard, then when I was decent at sweeps, I got more chances to learn top game.
shen -
No way around it: part of BJJ is getting smashed until you get the skills to avoid, defend it & counter it.
Shen has smashed the correct.
I wrestled in highschool (terribly) before BJJ so for the first couple of months I was nothing but top. I was happy when I would just hold somebody in my guard. Lately I've been doing real funky stuff with open guard and such, It might not be as effective as top, but it sure as hell is alot more fun.
Interesting. Over here, they focused on bottom first, since it's harder to learn. I know for me the top just comes a lot more naturally.
Maybe I shouldn't do this, but often I'll pull guard just to shorten the shoving match on the knees.
"Maybe I shouldn't do this, but often I'll pull guard just to shorten the shoving match on the knees."
I do this too. usually, I'll pull right into a scissor, but people have gotten used to this. XD
FreestyleJJ - I think sometimes there's no choice involved. If you're smaller than a lot of your training partners or not as strong, you're going to be playing guard a lot until you can get good enough at it to force other positions. If you're bigger or stronger, you may end up on top more often, so you learn top game first. Then you have to force yourself to learn guard as well.
Yes, that's also a factor...
You can teach a 125 lbs guy to "play top" all you want, he STILL won't be spending hardly any time there when rolling. He's gonna be stuck on the bottom.
The only difference is now, he is stuck on the bottom AND the instructor isn't teaching him ANY of the skills to improve his position,because he is only being taught how to attack from the top for his first few months.
Learn BOTH.
I think the most important part to consider here is that new students get to roll regularly with people who are their size and rank (and with cooperative higher ranks), so they get to play top and bottom. You can teach them top and bottom, but unless they get to practice both, they can't learn both.
i think one of the things that i neglected to mention is that im bigger than the beginners yet they voluntarily pull guard, as if they feel they have a better chance on bottom???
after passing and beating them up, i tell them that they should take teh top if given
don't beat them up right away. let them throw some tight submissions on you then try to pass or let them reverse you so they can work on their respective top games. developing confidence in your training partners will pay off in the long run.
don't give up just handicap yourself a little.
Both from day 1.
I never "smash" or repeatedly submit white belts. It doesn't help either of us get better.
J
^more people need that attitude^. What i think is sillier (and im not trying to make a broad stereotype) but some of the higher belts i encounter mention offhandedly, and from my interpretation, seriously, that when they let white belts into the game, sometimes the white belts get big heads or make comments like "wow i was able to escape, last, pass the guard of a purple belt, brown belt etc!" and the higher belts being pissed about it.
On the one hand ur talking about a newbies ego, and on the other hand, those kind of comments shouldn't bother higher belts, unless they have an ego proble themselves.
You smash and repeatedly submit white belts as a higher belt u could be potentially impeding the growth of your school, and ur never gonna have good training partners to roll with if u just demoralize them and dont help them grow.
Anyway, in short i agree with John Frankl!
Sometimes everyone needs to get smashed and submitted without mercy. But only sometimes.
both period..personally starting from the bottom with escapes.
I weigh 130 pounds soaking wet and I'm built like a string bean. Who the fuck am I going to get top position on by doing sumo wrestling from the knees?
Guys like me have to play guard first. We get to work on our top game once we sweep the other guy with our guard (or if he pulls guard first). It doesn't matter which you do first, the other will catch up eventually once your "base" gets good enough. Since I got good at guard first, I've always got a safety blanket to retreat to if things go badly for me. It means my offense is worse, but my defense is much better. Maybe not the best MMA game, but certainly viable for no gi grappling and sport jiu jitsu.
Also, if you pass their guard like it's nothing, why not teach them how to regain it after the pass, or better yet stop that pass? If you're that much better, maybe don't try to pass like it's the finals of the mundials every time?