best art for baton/knife fighting?

phil my brother -

there is absolutely no need for an appology.

your my senior in the arts - and like I said above - i respect you immensely

the fight was at tuhon leo's camp in the PI against one of the guys leslie brought from texas - sorry i forgot his name, but he was a black dude.

obviously, my fight's are more memorable to me than anyone else - LOL

Nice to hear from you anyway - how are you - hope all is well with you and yours

sreiter,

I read your post with interest. Certainly your experience speaks for itself and vastly exceeds my own. We can feel free do disagree in this forum while at the same time digesting what the other person has to say. The reason I favour Kelly McCann is his holistic approach to weapons engagements, particularly nonviolent postures and weapons acquisition, which are very important in my view and not well taught even by many excellent kalista. His simple tactics would not be of a lot of interest to experienced kalista, but they're good. Another well-known "Kelly" has an ASP video which is just regular solo baston flowy stuff performed with an ASP in his hand. I'm not putting him down, he's an amazing, skilled guy, I've learned much from him, but that's not what we want to send our students to the street with. Not baton-wise.

It seemed to me that FutureProdigy was not looking particularly for "authentic" kali, but training that would enhance his ability to protect himself in a street engagement.

I certainly am not saying I agree with Dog Brothers on everything. For instance, some say that their use of gear causes them to emphasize certain lines and tactics which aren't necessarily superiour in real engagements. (Your angle one doesn't pack the same wallop on headgear as a horizontal forehand, for instance--but it's still great IRL.) Nonetheless, their experience and teachings have been a catalyst for many who have sought to increase the applicability of their training. They're a good filter for thing to ask about.

I guess you may have some further comments.

There are some that are following the path of WMA and (to name just one source) the works of Flore de Liberis's "Flos Duellatorum" This is a fight manual written in 1409. It starts with grappling, with dagger following and building upon the grappling skills, followed by the sword and other weapons. There are starting to be more and more WMA groups around the world. Many are finding it's a path they like. As I look across the post I see a wide range of advise, but only you can choose. Good luck in your choice.

iron -

I hope you didnt take my response as a attack on you. that wasnt my intent at all.

I read your post with much interest.

This thread, unlike those on the UG, are what a forum should strive to be, a open discussion between people with varying opinions and hopefully we will all be educated by the information given out.

I certainly learnt something from your thread, and would certainly ibe open to seeing what McCann has to offer -

one of my favorite counters in BJJ was taught to me by a guy who had 2 weeks experience, I have 6 years. everyone has something of value to offer - to go off on a tangent, i was critizing TKD's knife defense, the 'X' block. tuhon sayoc said, turn the 'X' block into KALI, how would you move if you found yourself doing a 'X' block. when i did it i was like "holy shit" (to myself) - it was actually a very good and very valid move. he said "everything, it's just what you do with it that makes it good or bad"

Hi guys,

Sreiter, do a Google search for "Jim Grover" and you will find out more about Kelly McCann. He uses Grover as a pseudonym.
I believe some of his stuff is reviewed at www.gutterfighting.org too.

I am a believer in the X block these days too. The way I was taught when I did Hapkido was to rigidly oppose the blow with my wrists. This is not only ineffective, but hurts alot even when you get it right.

I had the same experience as you did when I "Kalified" my X block. My instructor Ray Floro teaches an interesting variant of this block designed for shorter modern knives where the forearms are simply layed perpendicular to the upper arm with the left on top and used as a battering ram. This is nothing but a retracted X block being taught by a true Kalis Illustrisimo master. You can see Ray's posts in Moreira, Roy, Jen forum under the Kali headings.
Cheers,
Stu.

sreiter,

No worries. Tone and emotion are hard to "read" on text, so it's best to give the other person the benefit of the doubt. You were obviously being nice about it. Thanks for the exchange.

The funny thing in life is that there are always several people more knowledgeable than yourself, and even they disagree amongst themselves, and yet we as students are entitled to form our own opinions. This means that no matter what (tentative) conclusion we come to at a given moment, we are always "disagreeing with experts". Stab vs. thrust. Open-hand vs. fist. And on and on.

People in the ww2 combatives circles (people who are into John Kary and Cestari and the like) are more likely to know McCann than those in JKD/kali or MMA circles. I know some of them can be found at selfdefenseforums.com if you want to poke your nose into their little world.

Best regards,
IM

thanx for the info

all the best -

steve

ttt