With his potential retirement, there have been a couple discussions here about BJ Penn's toughness. I think BJ raises a lot of interesting questions about what toughness actually is; where you fall on the BJ debate ends up being indicative of your take on toughness. This is something I've thought about a lot through my own career in combat sports. I've fought for one of the best camps on Earth and wrestled for a top 5 D1 team; being in those environments mean you think about this a lot.
Factors of toughness:
A. Work ethic and discipline: This is where the BJ argument loses steam. It's easy to work hard for 5 minutes at a time; it's easy to say 'yes' to a fight. It's hard as hell to cut 40 pounds the right way. It's hard not to drink, not to go out, not to party when those options are available. It's hard to work hard - all the time, for an extended career. Those things require real toughness. BJ, for instance, could never do these things for more than a couple fights in a row.
Georges St. Pierre is probably the best example of the toughness associated with hard work. Other great examples are JDS, Randy, Chael, and Ben Henderson.
B. Demonstrated mental toughness at game time: There are a lot of guys who will work their asses off every day but when game day comes, they fold. They are tougher than 99% of the fight world, but this is where you separate the men from the boys. It's hard to really understand this quality until you've seen it up close in training and then in competition. Matt Lindland sums it up here, going beyond hardwork in describing Chael Sonnen: "I've said this before as his coach: He'll put the work in, and he'll stay dedicated, and he'll stay focused," he said. "He's an incredible athlete. He's got all the tools. But in fighting, you have to be a tough mother[expletive]. And he's just not very tough."
I think the desire to PREVAIL exceeds the desire to ENDURE. BJ endures incredibly. I'm convinced he would have stayed in that crucifix and eaten shots from Hughes forver. But trying to prevail: Shogun versus Hendo; JDS versus Cain; Nog versus Cro Cop; Frankie versus Gray.
C. "Any Time Any Where" This is BJ's world. Chael described it nicely during the Jon Jones fiasco (describing the same world I came up in): "Dan Henderson, Matt Lindland, Randy Couture. These are the guys who molded me not just physically, but mentally. They would fight anybody, any time, anywhere. Some people mean it when they say that.
I'm from that same mold. I'd never disrespect those guys that gave so much to me by being the first one from our group to back down. And I never say that to sound like a tough guy. I say that because I think it's really important that you're never a bully in this sport.
...The only litmus test I have for myself—am I willing to fight anybody? When the day comes that I won't fight somebody, I won't fight anybody."
Think Chael fighting Jones. BJ fighting Lyoto. Royce Gracie. Charlie Brenneman fighting on a day's notice. Sak versus the world. Tough!
There is no doubt BJ is TOUGH. But if we look at toughness holistically, I don't think we can say he's the toughest. Same with Sak. Imagine if these guys ate right and trained hard! They are some of the toughest dudes around; but saying they are the toughest disrespects in some way the hard work put in by a Georges St. Pierre or Frankie Edgar.
I think you have to blend all these elements. I'm thinking Uriah Faber; JDS; Anderson Silva; Nog; Enson; Frankie; etc.
Thoughts?
Bj is amazingly gifted, and a terrific athlete but as far as 'tough' goes by your definition, he gets a failing grade.
He spent so much of his early career not needing to be tough that it wasn't ingrained into him.
When his gifts failed and he had to dig deep to find that spark of grit to avoid giving up, he didn't have a big enough shovel. 
^^Yeah, I agree.
I'm going to edit to add one more factor of toughness. "Killer Instinct." See above
^^I lied. My edit function is all messed up. So one more factor:
D. Killer Instinct: There is something tough about the way Nick Diaz finished Paul Daley; Anderson finished Vitor; BJ fought to murder Sanchez, Ken Flo, and Joe Daddy (not to even mention Uno); or Wanderlei Silva's entire career. Real killers deserve some credit. However, I'm cautious to put this as in the same league as the three other categories.
Frankie Edgar fights, I think, to the absolute most of his abilities. I don't think he's any less tough for the way he fights.
But that's just me.
bj lost some of his toughness points when he quit on the stool
OP messed up thread title.
should have put is instead of and.
work ethic has nothing to do with being tough
I already give BJ Penn props for getting in the ring with Machida. That takes some major balls.
Take your top 5 fighters who you think are tougher than BJ Penn.(This goes for anyone)
Tell me what makes their toughness more impressive than BJ Penn fighting who he has fought, and Never being submitted, Never being ko'd, Never being dropped in a fight.
I want to see how many of you can convince me how many fighters are tougher than Penn.
Ready? GO
brune90 - bj lost some of his toughness points when he quit on the stool
Yeah. 100%. I don't think BJ's tough attributes - his willingness to endure Hughes' bludgeoning; his willingness to fight anybody anywhere; and his killer instinct - make up for things like training 1x per day leading up to the GSP fight and then quitting.
Sherdoggystyle - work ethic has nothing to do with being tough
I already give BJ Penn props for getting in the ring with Machida. That takes some major balls.
Curious why you think so.
Not that answering no disqualifies your opinion, but have you been seriously involved with or participated in the highest levels of training? If so, how on Earth could you say that DOESN'T involve toughness?
Serious fight training is harder in many ways than an actual fight.
to me a tough man has nothing to do with his work ethic, his motivation or anything else. it has to do with the willingness to stand up to adversity, take a beating and not stop and never shy away from a challenge.
BJ is tough, but there are times i think he should have just stopped. the diaz fight is a good example. people talk shit about the way bj didn't finish the fight with gsp. well that's mostly because of the stupid shit talking bj did about 'to the death george'. but it was the right thing to do at the time.
going back in, knowing you don't have the capability to win any more, is admirable, but it's really not smart.
i can't stand bj. never have liked him since he left the first time. but i think it would take an idiot to claim he's not tough. he's about as tough as they come
D241 -
Take your top 5 fighters who you think are tougher than BJ Penn.(This goes for anyone)
Tell me what makes their toughness more impressive than BJ Penn fighting who he has fought, and Never being submitted, Never being ko'd, Never being dropped in a fight.
I want to see how many of you can convince me how many fighters are tougher than Penn.
Ready? GO
No problem, D. These aren't my 5 all-time toughest. Just people who are tougher than BJ for different reasons.
Big Nog - comes in better shape than BJ. Fights anyone anywhere in spite of injuries. Fights to win consistently even when getting beaten on.
Enson - almost died in the ring and apologized to fans for not fighting hard enough.
Sak - arguably a greater 'any man anytime' ethos than BJ; fought Igor for Christ's sake. Endured more than BJ has endured in a fight and still tried to win through out.
Frankie - works much harder than BJ. Still a small guy fighting the big boys. Comebacks from the Gray fights make him tougher.
Fedor - Better shape; small guy against big guys; killer instinct; perseverance (Randleman, for instance).
Humphrey - to me a tough man has nothing to do with his work ethic, his motivation or anything else. it has to do with the willingness to stand up to adversity, take a beating and not stop and never shy away from a challenge.
BJ is tough, but there are times i think he should have just stopped. the diaz fight is a good example. people talk shit about the way bj didn't finish the fight with gsp. well that's mostly because of the stupid shit talking bj did about 'to the death george'. but it was the right thing to do at the time.
going back in, knowing you don't have the capability to win any more, is admirable, but it's really not smart.
i can't stand bj. never have liked him since he left the first time. but i think it would take an idiot to claim he's not tough. he's about as tough as they come
I think BJ is incredibly tough. My point here isn't that he's not. It's just that he's not the toughest. And then I'm trying to get a good sense of what toughness in fighting really is.
Isn't a full training camp involving pushing yourself to the absolute limits for a sustained period of time while cutting weight pushing through adversity?
BJ showed the most heart of any of his fights in the Diaz fight.
wiggum -Do you think cross fit guys are tough? Just curious...Sherdoggystyle - work ethic has nothing to do with being tough
I already give BJ Penn props for getting in the ring with Machida. That takes some major balls.
Curious why you think so.
Not that answering no disqualifies your opinion, but have you been seriously involved with or participated in the highest levels of training? If so, how on Earth could you say that DOESN'T involve toughness?
Serious fight training is harder in many ways than an actual fight.
levragentiming -wiggum -Do you think cross fit guys are tough? Just curious...Sherdoggystyle - work ethic has nothing to do with being tough
I already give BJ Penn props for getting in the ring with Machida. That takes some major balls.
Curious why you think so.
Not that answering no disqualifies your opinion, but have you been seriously involved with or participated in the highest levels of training? If so, how on Earth could you say that DOESN'T involve toughness?
Serious fight training is harder in many ways than an actual fight.
No. Crossfit is for NARPs (non-athletic regular people).
The toughness required for a real training camp is entirely different. Or real training in general.
nostripewhite - Bj is amazingly gifted, and a terrific athlete but as far as 'tough' goes by your definition, he gets a failing grade.This sounds about right
He spent so much of his early career not needing to be tough that it wasn't ingrained into him.
When his gifts failed and he had to dig deep to find that spark of grit to avoid giving up, he didn't have a big enough shovel.
Wiggum, I can clearly see where our difference in opinion lies.
I feel you are bringing in "heart" into toughness, which is arguable if it should be included. This is your thread so if that is part of your requirements, then so be it.
However, I am comparing only toughness, to toughness.
Big Nog, let his arm get snapped, before finally tapping. That is HEART.
Nog has been dropped many times, but never gives up, that's heart.
BJ Penn has not only had anything snapped, he's never been dropped. That is Toughness
BJ has given up in a fight, that I attribute moreso to lack of heart than toughness. He took a beating and his body didn't give out.
Enson fought a great striker, and was dropped and hurt many times. It was his HEART that stood out to me the most. However, he also showed mad toughness and Enson I feel is the fighter with the most heart in the history of fighting, and also one of the toughest.
I'll give you Enson, but an argument can be made his toughness record in fights isnt' as good as BJ Penn's.
Sakuraba, Frankie, Fedor, they all arguably have more heart than BJ Penn. But they all, have been dropped in the stand up, or submitted. BJ Penn has not, and unlike Frankie, BJ has fought many bigger guys, and never been dropped.
You named 1(Enson), so you don't meet my standards ;)
Great post, D. I disagree. But it's a great post.
Ultimately, I think we have a difference in semantics. But in my world heart has always been a huge part of toughness. (Heart being different than work ethic (though they usually correlate nicely)). See the Lindland quote for an example of what I see toughness as.
By your definition you're right. By mine, I'm right.
But, semantics.
^^Thanks. I agree - I'm very pleased with the responses.
And very glad that nobody sees this thread as an attack on BJ. Again, I think he's insanely tough.
Rating toughness is pretty tough.