I'm still pretty new to BJJ and am part of an academy that focuses on "sport" or tournament. My real interest lies in self defense and I am very aware many, if not most, of the techniques I am being taught would not be very helpful when punching is involved.
That said, I've been going through Gracie Combatives on the side and really enjoy their self defense approach. Punching is always factored into the equation, and having been in a good bunch of fights in my day, lots of what they teach is certainly applicable.
My dilemma lies in that, a) I can't change BJJ academy b) I am uninterested in tournaments or doing triple reverse flux berimolos.
For those experienced BJJ practitioners here. Any great tip on how to keep my rolling self defense oriented? I do gi. Should I forget about sleeves and collars and simply focus on the Gracie Combatives stuff? Go for a no gi approach?
All your input is much appreciated, except for little axe murdergirl, cuz he's tapping black belts and all.
Peace yo!
How about you just train what they teach you for a while, especially if you are, as you say "pretty new" to BJJ? You're not even going to be skilled/knowledgeable enough at this point to really know how to adjust your rolling for "self defense." Even at so-called sport-oriented schools, only a small percentage of students actually compete, so I doubt they are forcing everyone to concentrate on an inverted, fancy game. You will at least be working on body movement, gain some strength, cardio, and flexibility, and get used to physical contact, resisting opponents and the feeling of getting smashed, choked, etc.
After you start getting a handle on that shit, maybe part way into blue belt, then go back to your Gracie tapes and ask some willing training partners to throw light strikes at you.
Thanks for your reply. What I'd love to hear though is, what are those adjustments you make to roll for self defense? You say I might not be skilled enough to make them. I like to, and am really good at figuring out my own limits and abilities and am also quite knowledgeable in the science of learning. I'll be ok. So what are these adjustments you speak of?
"am also quite knowledgeable in the science of learning"
Good lord
If I were you I'd look for some like-minded souls and roll with them - throw in light striking just to keep the techniques "honest." If it makes you feel better I've gone through the same dilemma and walked away several times.
Ray Cappa - If I were you I'd look for some like-minded souls and roll with them - throw in light striking just to keep the techniques "honest." If it makes you feel better I've gone through the same dilemma and walked away several times.Did you come back every time Ray? Any pointers you've picked up along the way? I'm trying to wrangle my schedule to try to get to MMA class and mix it up a bit more.
bartatua - "am also quite knowledgeable in the science of learning"And I avoided saying critical pedagogy to keep things clear. Throughout my life I've been heavily involved in teaching and learning. There is brilliant science behind it all. Applying specific science to every learners case improves retention and ability nearly ten fold. You should really look into it. Whatever endeavor you are partaking in it makes progress fluid and keeps satisfaction levels high for loner periods of time leading to even more improvement. I've tried it first hand in languages, music, and martial arts. I'm fluent in 3 languages, English being one of them, made a living as a pro musician (self taught) and sound engineer for a long time and have rather decent retention for martial arts. It's all science fren, it's all science.
Good lord
Gi is like fighting with clothes =more like real life
Bangha - Thanks for your reply. What I'd love to hear though is, what are those adjustments you make to roll for self defense? You say I might not be skilled enough to make them. I like to, and am really good at figuring out my own limits and abilities and am also quite knowledgeable in the science of learning. I'll be ok. So what are these adjustments you speak of?I am open to learning anything but I don't like making those moves that aren't street applicable part of my game. I'll learn deep half and berimbolos etc but I don't really use them much when rolling. I stick mainly to closed guard, focusing a lot on breaking down my opponents posture. Always looking to sweep or submit.
Learn what is taught and then pick out what you feels is important for you and work on those on your time but don't expect to move up in the art.
I used to take a JKD approach to BJJ and used what I liked and what I thought worked best for me and totally ignored the other aspects of my game. I thought subs of limbs were useless for self defence and only worked on chokes, positions and sweeps for years. As a result I have been a purple belt for almost 10 years while other have passed me and are black belts. I recently realized that at 40+ years old I haven't been in a fight or self defense situation for almost 19 years and am now looking at having a complete game and moving up in ranks.
Always forlcus on being on top, or getting off your back. Never go for submissions that if you miss will regress your position.
Sub
mdrndaysamurai - Always forlcus on being on top, or getting off your back. Never go for submissions that if you miss will regress your position.
this is actually pretty good advice
If you cant change academies, build your understanding of the basics. I dont think avoiding the sleeve and collar is good advice since people wear clothes and the grips are useful.
The odds that you are going to come up against another bjjer in a SD situation are very small. So in this respect, any substantive study of any style of bjj is going to put you far ahead of an uneducated attacker.
Find a program you enjoy training in and the rest will come
It's like this;
Imagine you go to a boxing club and you start to learn boxing as it should be taught, you learn to throw straight, hard (beep), clean punches. You learn excellent head movement and footwork. You become a competent boxer. Then you decide to learn self defence. You start by getting your partner(s) to throw wide and sloppy hayemeakers, perhaps fighting two people at once.
Same with BJJ now. You are learning solid fundamentals right now. Stuff that carries through to the highest level and into street fighting (I loath to use the term "self defence" because that is an almost entirely different subject including things like avoidance and awareness). Most decent blue belts can escape a headlock.
Now if you're still interested in street applicable learning, then a) start first with sharpening your techniques. Learning all the basics and making them quick and effective. Then you want to focus on top positions and getting there, knee on belly is better for the street than a tight side control IMO b) Learn to wrestl or do judo/sambo. Takedowns and defending them are essential to survival c) Do both gi and no-gi. Do not inhibit your gi training by not going for grips. d) Take some striking classes that you like. Doesn't have to be any of the staple arts of MMA. You can go and learn Hapkido if you like, just have SOMETHING.
I'll probably think of more, but that would be enough to be getting on with. Sharpen up the techniques you have now. They are the ones you will use forever.
If you're truly interested in self defence, look up books by Geoff Thompson. He covers things that most schools don't do, such as knowing your rights in regards to self defence, habitual acts of violence, avaoidance and awareness, what it really means when someone is bumping chests with you saying "just swing bro" (HINT: They don't want a fight, they want an ego boost).
Shit like that is what self defence actually is. Fighitng techniques are for when you've fucked up the self defence stuff.
Go to the Dairy Queen parking lot in Tulsa and seek the true master of martial arts to guide you.
I think you can tailor your own style to a self-defense oriented one without leaving your school or changing your training entirely. You just have to roll with a few concepts in mind:
1) You want to be on top, always. Not to say you want to be a stubborn knee-wrestler, but if you're on bottom you want to get on top and stay there, not just retain guard for the sake of it.
2) When you're on your back, you need to keep distance in mind. If you hold onto closed guard without controlling your opponent's posture, you're open for strikes. Focus on keeping your opponent close (closed guard) or far away (open guard).
3) Train takedowns as much as you possibly can.
mada - Been training off and on for 20 years. Been a purple belt for the last 16 years lol.Great post.
When I go to class I do whatever is being taught, I pay attention, and I try to be a good partner for whoever I'm drilling with. That said, I haven't worked on anything from my back other than sweeps or just creating scrambles to stand back up in 15 years. I always focus on position over submission and I don't practice anything that simply isn't good for my game or body type. I rarely do collar chokes or even touch my opponents lapel. My previous instructor told me I would be promoted to brown if I became better at gi chokes and sleeve work, I didn't. I also always use wrist control over grabbing sleeves.
I'm a big guy, and decent wrestler. I train only for self defense and would rather fight standing if given the choice.
All that said, I still prefer to train/practice in a gi. I find it to be slower and more methodical. This makes me think about technique more. When I roll no gi I feel like it always becomes a competition of who is more explosive and who has better cardio. At 38 I don't give a shit lol. I can only go a few rounds at that pace and I don't get much out of it.
So my advice is stay respectful to your instructor and training partners during class. There is always something to learn from techniques you won't use, even if it's just how to defend them. But be realistic about your goals and abilities and focus on those during open mat. Try to find higher ranked guys that have a similar mindset or at least employ a top game you'd like to emulate. Also be careful not to completely neglect fighting from your back. You at the least need to know how to not get pummeled and ideally want to learn how to sweep or get up.
Good luck
I think if you try to cherry pick anything now as a beginner, you'll invariably skip something that's of great value because its hard, or you don't see the point to it, or both.
I think you should forget thinking like this at all (with the exception of asking to start on the feet, or if you can't do that, start from the bottom of mount or side mount whenever possible -IF you e already started learning takedowns, falling, and takedown defense) for a while, like even a year or two.
It seems paradoxical, but you'll almost certainly be much more skilled than if you try to critique anything now or alter your training; you're not informed right now in the intuitive/experiential sense, and you IMO need to get there before you try to pass judgements on what's valuable for your goals. Everyone I've seen who has tried to do that as a beginner (myself included) has set their training back TREMENDOUSLY.
BigEyedFish -Thanks and voted up. I LOVE bjj. I also think the sport of bjj is watering everything down. I never cared if my students won metals, I care if they can fight. Everything else is just for fun. Bottm line is you fight how you train.mdrndaysamurai - Always forlcus on being on top, or getting off your back. Never go for submissions that if you miss will regress your position.
this is actually pretty good advice
If you cant change academies, build your understanding of the basics. I dont think avoiding the sleeve and collar is good advice since people wear clothes and the grips are useful.
The odds that you are going to come up against another bjjer in a SD situation are very small. So in this respect, any substantive study of any style of bjj is going to put you far ahead of an uneducated attacker.
Find a program you enjoy training in and the rest will come
Get some ninja shit