Bjj vs Catch Wrestling

Antonik , you and I both know that catch wrestlers can't start talking about submissions without insinuating that they and not bjj are the inventors of such submissions ... this is , in fact , the kind of tone that you carried with you coming into this thread. That's what bothers me the most about some catch wrestlers , they can't seem to keep bjj out of their conversations , in short I wish that catch wrestlers were more self sufficient.

I thought that this was the kind of discussion that you had in mind , next time don't start off your post by mentioning anything in a historical context if you don't want to get into controversial discussions. You'll never hear a BJJer even utter the word catch wrestling because they're too busy defining themselves and proving themselves , prominent catch wrestlers such as Barnett , Paulson , Melanson all like to piggy back in the Jiu Jitsu spotlight by making disparaging and controversial remarks about its history without endeavoring in any real work themselves.

SpartanFightClub - Anyway, just go to the Xcouture cacc coach thread. Everything have been said.

But CGT always ducked those questions :

1- Are you a bjj practicioner?
2- If yes, how long?
3- Have you ever done a cacc class with a respectable cacc coach??<br type="_moz" />


Are you referring to Melancon? Did you notice that he was once listed in BIG BOLD LETTERS as Xtreme Couture's Head JIU JITSU coach? Did you notice him handing out BJJ belts and touting himself as a BJJ expert just about a year ago?

But ohhhhhh no , putting " Jiu Jitsu " in the website was all supposedly a big mistake - in fact , just after he gets people interested and a bunch of people join his facility , he then SHAPESHIFTS into " oh , I'm ACTUALLY a catch wrestler". All that stuff on the site was just a BIG MISTAKE. Yeah all that Jiu Jitsu stuff he was teaching them was ACTUALLY catch wrestling.

Fucking unbelievable.

Just so blatantly degenerate in ploys and lies , Melancon. Should have seen the pathetic expression on his face when Couture got his teeth knocked out. Much respect to Couture , but he made freinds with the wrong guy.

after reading the thread and such..i can say with a clear conscience.. Antonik is not trolling at all and seems to be opening up some honest interest with Catch and BJJ without making it into a war because quite simply the sheer numbers of bjj vs catch is a landslide-- and on that alone its the reason bjj is pretty much nmr 1 in that aspect.


the catch community is growing but yet still the masses of BJJ is 20x more . i have been on this forum and have seen the NEVER end wars of catch vs bjj and big names behind each art in one way or another ...there have been 20 -50 pages threads on the subject with no end in sight (which is good as we keep learning and dissecting the topic) however there is some turn where it starts to become blatant fanboyism and trolling to where the topic loses flavor due to non openness .

having said this with a small wrestling (freestyle ) and more bjj/judo/submission background myself i actually appreciate the intricate aspects of catch and love them both =BADASS MOFO imo . as someone mentioned - a background in combat arts /wrestling would make the transition ALOT smoother as the base set is pretty immersed vs someone who has done anything and just started catch or bjj for that matter.

both arts offer something the other doesnt...

in catch u arent going to learn how to choke with a shirt or sleeve but in catch you will learn toeholds (in bjj i think its illegal in tournies)

i actually prefer the catch DWL version over BJJs DWL anyday (rmr this coming from a bjj dude)..i have also pulled catch moves on bjj guys in class such as an armbar from halfguard from on top....but i doubt catch would/could teach one the "bow n arrow" as in bjj cuz u would need a gi to do that--so u see the compliments of one to the other actually fills the gap of the other .


i say learn some of BOTH if possible as i have done..i have all of Tony Cs stuff except the Snap no TAP newest series -despite that its all some good stuff and a couple Sakuraba vids from way back -yet as well its good stuff.

keep an open mind n lear anything u can


as BRuce Lees' famous qoute


"be like water... learn to adapt"


-

btw at my job there is this guy who used to do PRo wrestling for 10years adn traveled with Lex Lugar, Randy Savage n others on a smaller circuit.. he doesnt look or appear like much but only a fool would judge by that-- i am gonna see if i can learn some stuff from him and get its stage name if he had one... i wish i could see him more but hour shifts on the job are "come n go" .

i will learn where ever i can and utilize it

I also noticed neck cranks to be incredibly useful.

From a self-defence situation where your opponent might be wearing a t-shirt - neck cranks could potentially permit you to setup a lot of strikes from the standing position.

Again - bjj isn't the only kid on the block - but its the most organized system. Meaning that you can compete against other schools etc... which drives up competition.

Catch wrestling is not some useless art - but its not organized and as such the practitioners arent as good as they can be.


I'm guessing most of Josh Barnett's grappling training partners are BJJ ranked because there simply arent enough good catch wrestlers.

MAG - I also noticed neck cranks to be incredibly useful.

From a self-defence situation where your opponent might be wearing a t-shirt - neck cranks could potentially permit you to setup a lot of strikes from the standing position.

Again - bjj isn't the only kid on the block - but its the most organized system. Meaning that you can compete against other schools etc... which drives up competition.

Catch wrestling is not some useless art - but its not organized and as such the practitioners arent as good as they can be.


I'm guessing most of Josh Barnett's grappling training partners are BJJ ranked because there simply arent enough good catch wrestlers.




i dont think Josh BArnetts catch is authentic at all - at least in mma since i never really seem him use it and i doubt we will see it in his fight against Brett Rogers 2nite ...it seems to be all show and mostly the reason for his "catch" is for promoting Jake Shannons Scientific Wrestling site. he would ve been better off training with Cecchine .


now on a flip side for self defense roles.. there is a lot of nice catch applications that can be used HANDS DOWN!!

SpartanFightClub - 
GCT - Antonik , I didn't mean for my statements to be applied to ALL catch wrestlers , just guys like Barnett , Melancon , Paulson ... sadly these few guys are the most voiced and popular proponents of catch wrestling.

So you enjoy catch wrestling ... that's great. But when you start off fresh threads with statements that threaten to shake the fundamental history of definitive martial art forms such as BJJ , you're basically igniting controversy based on trivial matters of who invented what and where.

The topic of invention is a testy topic , it's pretty much taboo because most of us keep out of such matters due to good faith that all of us borrow from each other to some extent and that the most efficiently evolved and applicable of the two martial art form will eventually prevail.

Catch wrestlers , some of them , have been known to instigate controversy about martial art inventions , it's just pathetic and juvenile. They are not able to get themselves into the spotlight and so expand on and shapeshift on the actual definition of what constitutes catch wrestling in order to share in the spotlight in a delusional sense.

Sparking controversy is their way of getting themselves into the spotlight without actually being of a significant presence inside of the cage.

I dont get your point at all.

My coach is Kris Iatskevich, a cacc'er. You can look at his video on youtube and he is well know and respected  on lockflow too.

So, you are telling me, that i'm a bjj'er and cacc doesnt exist ??

What is your point?



kris about the only other catch authority aside from Tony- active wise- for todays generation... its nice he has changed his approach on his reputation and image these days

GCT - Antonik , you and I both know that catch wrestlers can't start talking about submissions without insinuating that they and not bjj are the inventors of such submissions ... this is , in fact , the kind of tone that you carried with you coming into this thread. That's what bothers me the most about some catch wrestlers , they can't seem to keep bjj out of their conversations , in short I wish that catch wrestlers were more self sufficient.



I thought that this was the kind of discussion that you had in mind , next time don't start off your post by mentioning anything in a historical context if you don't want to get into controversial discussions. You'll never hear a BJJer even utter the word catch wrestling because they're too busy defining themselves and proving themselves , prominent catch wrestlers such as Barnett , Paulson , Melanson all like to piggy back in the Jiu Jitsu spotlight by making disparaging and controversial remarks about its history without endeavoring in any real work themselves.





 Since you are a historian, are you aware of Maeda's history?   He was a Judo man that toured the World for a couple/few years with.......Catchwrestlers, before going to Brazil and teaching the Gracies.   So what exactly did he teach them?   



MA is a circle.  Pick an starting point or an end point and you will come to the same spot eventually.

bwhaha, every time someone posts those Ceccine videos I think they are jokes...then I realize he is 100% serious in the video.

I love the one where he puts his leg on your shin from open guard and pulls up on the foot for a footlock. Looks really high percentage to me. bwhahah. its not like the guy has movable hips, two free hands, and a free foot to push him off/create space, arm drag, take back.


Someone PLEASE post a video of catch wrestler vs a good BJJ gi where the catch wrestler doesnt look like h is doing no gi bjj. I would like to see these moves landed and be able to see the difference in styles

 Ignorance is bliss.

pretty much ^^^^

"Since all the injuries I’ve gotten doing no-gi and bjj have come from white belts."



It was probably your fault. Phone Post

anonymousone - bwhaha, every time someone posts those Ceccine videos I think they are jokes...then I realize he is 100% serious in the video.

I love the one where he puts his leg on your shin from open guard and pulls up on the foot for a footlock. Looks really high percentage to me. bwhahah. its not like the guy has movable hips, two free hands, and a free foot to push him off/create space, arm drag, take back.


Someone PLEASE post a video of catch wrestler vs a good BJJ gi where the catch wrestler doesnt look like h is doing no gi bjj. I would like to see these moves landed and be able to see the difference in styles


Have you seen Carlos Newton Vs Sakuraba back in Pride?

THAT is one amazing match!

GCT - Antonik , you and I both know that catch wrestlers can't start talking about submissions without insinuating that they and not bjj are the inventors of such submissions ... this is , in fact , the kind of tone that you carried with you coming into this thread. That's what bothers me the most about some catch wrestlers , they can't seem to keep bjj out of their conversations , in short I wish that catch wrestlers were more self sufficient.

I thought that this was the kind of discussion that you had in mind , next time don't start off your post by mentioning anything in a historical context if you don't want to get into controversial discussions. You'll never hear a BJJer even utter the word catch wrestling because they're too busy defining themselves and proving themselves , prominent catch wrestlers such as Barnett , Paulson , Melanson all like to piggy back in the Jiu Jitsu spotlight by making disparaging and controversial remarks about its history without endeavoring in any real work themselves.



Yes I do, and I agree with you on that. That's the sad part of CACC. Many of the guys that do CACC has something "Bad" or negative to say about BJJ,wich is stupid of course until proven different.

I personally love the art of grappling, when I found some new moves you might call them, it was like finding a new toy to play with.

Like I said i'm new to the forum and I had no clue that it was a tender subject to talk about. But still, if you look back and see what I wrote. Never did I say something negative about either CACC or BJJ.

What I'm trying to do is learn the moves that work from CACC and BJJ and try to make those to styles in to one. I'm not talking about creating a new style or something like that. But to use what can be used from both worlds.

Go and get your catch guy to roll with Roger Gracie and see how that goes for him lol!

Catch! I live near Wigan and guess what? there ain much going around. I know 1 guy that is realy good and thats it! but he would be beat by Roger easily.

e. kaye -
GCT - Antonik , you and I both know that catch wrestlers can't start talking about submissions without insinuating that they and not bjj are the inventors of such submissions ... this is , in fact , the kind of tone that you carried with you coming into this thread. That's what bothers me the most about some catch wrestlers , they can't seem to keep bjj out of their conversations , in short I wish that catch wrestlers were more self sufficient.

I thought that this was the kind of discussion that you had in mind , next time don't start off your post by mentioning anything in a historical context if you don't want to get into controversial discussions. You'll never hear a BJJer even utter the word catch wrestling because they're too busy defining themselves and proving themselves , prominent catch wrestlers such as Barnett , Paulson , Melanson all like to piggy back in the Jiu Jitsu spotlight by making disparaging and controversial remarks about its history without endeavoring in any real work themselves.


Since you are a historian, are you aware of Maeda's history? He was a Judo man that toured the World for a couple/few years with.......Catchwrestlers, before going to Brazil and teaching the Gracies. So what exactly did he teach them?

MA is a circle. Pick an starting point or an end point and you will come to the same spot eventually.


This is exactly what I'm referring to Antonik , a typical example of a catch wrestler trying to go piggy-backing in Jiu Jitsu spotlight by disparaging Jiu Jitsu history . Completely juvenile and an absolute no no with respect to conduct between distinct art forms ...

I don't quite know how long Maeda was hanging around with catch wrestlers , perhaps it was for just a day , maybe it was for months. What I do know in the absolute sense is that Maeda wasn't a pupil , his mission was to spread his own art form , and to do this he traversed the globe including Europe and South America to spread HIS art.

I also know that simple submissions such as RNC , Kimura , amongst others were commonplace in Japan where Jujutsu was around for centuries prior to his visits in America , and thus Maeda needed not to learn them from Catch wrestlers , who coincidentally only recently incorporated submissions into catch wrestling only because the matches were taking too long. I say coincidentally because this is about the time Jujutsu/Jiu Jitsu practitioners were making their rounds demonstrating their art throughout the states , so much so that they were eventually wowing presidents such as Roosevelt.

What strikes me here is that NO ONE , including catch wrestlers , cried foul when they saw these submissions. And all of the sudden , catch wrestlers start to incorporate submissions into catch wrestling RIGHT AT THE EXACT TIME ALL OF THESE DEMONSTRATIONS WERE HAPPENING. Coincidence? I think not.

Well...

how many successful MMA champions train in catch?

how many im BJJ?

traneufcisback - 
Having said all of that. I personally know of a non-competitive BJJ purple belt who is not a big brusier (probably 170 to 180lbs) who submitted one of those Catch tape instructors a few times without too much worry.


Not that i give a fuck about catch wrestling, but i love how these stories never have names included.

I'm guessing if the guy has a tape out - he's relatively known in the industry. Its not as if naming them is irrelevant.

PS: I know a HS wresler who pinned this high profile Bjjer. Bjjer basically had to wait for the HS wrestler to let him up. True story, bro!

GCT - 
e. kaye -
GCT - Antonik , you and I both know that catch wrestlers can't start talking about submissions without insinuating that they and not bjj are the inventors of such submissions ... this is , in fact , the kind of tone that you carried with you coming into this thread. That's what bothers me the most about some catch wrestlers , they can't seem to keep bjj out of their conversations , in short I wish that catch wrestlers were more self sufficient.



I thought that this was the kind of discussion that you had in mind , next time don't start off your post by mentioning anything in a historical context if you don't want to get into controversial discussions. You'll never hear a BJJer even utter the word catch wrestling because they're too busy defining themselves and proving themselves , prominent catch wrestlers such as Barnett , Paulson , Melanson all like to piggy back in the Jiu Jitsu spotlight by making disparaging and controversial remarks about its history without endeavoring in any real work themselves.





Since you are a historian, are you aware of Maeda's history? He was a Judo man that toured the World for a couple/few years with.......Catchwrestlers, before going to Brazil and teaching the Gracies. So what exactly did he teach them?



MA is a circle. Pick an starting point or an end point and you will come to the same spot eventually.




This is exactly what I'm referring to Antonik , a typical example of a catch wrestler trying to go piggy-backing in Jiu Jitsu spotlight by disparaging Jiu Jitsu history . Completely juvenile and an absolute no no with respect to conduct between distinct art forms ...



I don't quite know how long Maeda was hanging around with catch wrestlers , perhaps it was for just a day , maybe it was for months. What I do know in the absolute sense is that Maeda wasn't a pupil , his mission was to spread his own art form , and to do this he traversed the globe including Europe and South America to spread HIS art.



I also know that simple submissions such as RNC , Kimura , amongst others were commonplace in Japan where Jujutsu was around for centuries prior to his visits in America , and thus Maeda needed not to learn them from Catch wrestlers , who coincidentally only recently incorporated submissions into catch wrestling only because the matches were taking too long. I say coincidentally because this is about the time Jujutsu/Jiu Jitsu practitioners were making their rounds demonstrating their art throughout the states , so much so that they were eventually wowing presidents such as Roosevelt.



What strikes me here is that NO ONE , including catch wrestlers , cried foul when they saw these submissions. And all of the sudden , catch wrestlers start to incorporate submissions into catch wrestling RIGHT AT THE EXACT TIME ALL OF THESE DEMONSTRATIONS WERE HAPPENING. Coincidence? I think not.


 You need to do some research.

I'm just gonna leave this right here:

http://forums.mmafrenzy.com/topic/5-videos-josh-barnett-submitting-people-at-grapple-x

Is that a Gracie guy in the last video? Maybe he is a white belt too?

 HEre I will start you off:



After having several of his top students become newaza experts, Kano thought it a good idea to use this type of Judo in the school system. As the matches ended in submission instead of serious injury, it would be seen more in a sportive way. So in 1914 he organized the All Japan High School championships at Kyoto Imperial University. He called this sportive style Kosen. By 1925 so much emphasis was on newaza - because of its success in contest that Kano had to make some new Judo rules limiting the amount of time the Judoka could stay on the ground. This "Kosen Rule" continued into the 1940's, stating Shiai had to be 70% standing and 30% ground fighting. This led to an early split in the Kodokan Judo movement. Many of those Judoka whom Kano had set to master newaza, had spent time inventing new series of movements, escapes, and submissions. They and their students were now dominating even the Kodokan contests. There was so much negativity with this, that Kano sent many of them abroad to teach Judo elsewhere. He was very aware that they would not be easily defeated no matter where they went, and he also smartly removed the challenge they presented in Japan. Some of the known Kosen Judoka were Yamashita, Hirata, Tomita, Yokoyama and Maeda.

Kosen Judo has only continued in a few places. One example is Hirata Kanae's dojo is in Japan. He died in 1998, but the dojo still continues. Then there is Brazil, which started with Maeda. Mitsuyo Maeda who began training in Judo in 1897, and became one of the troublesome Kosen Judoka who was sent abroad with Tsunejiro Tomita. Traveling in the US, Maeda outshone his senior Tomita, defeating wrestlers and fighters that had beaten Tomita. Tomita and Maeda went their separate ways - with Maeda going onto the early "fighting circuit" for money. He even travelled to Europe where he lost the only two matches of his life against a Catch Wrestler. He spent extra time with the wrestler learning some of those techniques. Finally in 1915 Maeda settled in Brazil where he taught Carlos Gracie, the son of a local politician. Carlos Gracie and his brothers adopted the Kosen Judo techniques and developed them further during the 20th century into what came to be known as Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.