Anyway, i think that Kosen is a clasic art where its not allowed to evolve the art. Bjj is an art where new elements that works are wellcame. I think its a big difference.
It's my understanding that Kosen is just a Japanese word that has some meaning attributing to scholastics or schooling or something. It turns out that they happened to practice more newaza. Kosen doesn't mean it's about newaza.
Then again, I could be wrong.
Yeah, Bandwidth, you are wrong there. Judo is continuously evolving- even today.
Great pics Ryukyu
I trained at Yuki Nakais school in tokyo for 3 years. Before I went to japan I didn't think judoka's had good ground skills but LOTS of good judokas and pro-wrestlers turn up to Nakais open mat sparring sessions (most afternoons) and they are MONSTERS.
Those are some cool videos...I am always awestruck at the depth of real judo.
TTT for later!
T, T to the motherfucken T!!!
for once and for all, the use of "kosen" as a form of school play was established AFTER Maeda left Japan...
there was only the Kodokan in those days, which housed many different jiujitsuka and all trained in Kano's style of jiujitsu, which he termed Judo..simply put, Kano synthesized a method of training and combat (randori) that made his techniques useful and effective, his modifications of techniques allowed the full contact play, which was very different from the traditional styles that predated him..
Maeda, as was the others, did Kodokan Judo (kano's training style) and that is what they taught to others..
notwithstanding that, each person, including Maeda, developed their own style as well based on what they were doing with their judo, this no doubt included Maeda's NHB fighting to showcase judo..
Kodokan judo at the turn of the last century was much more inclusive of more violent techniques (injurious) as well as a heavy emphasis on newaza...which is why you see these references showing this..
Judo of more modern times (post 1956 world championships) developed into more sportive focus with many prefering tachiwaza or stand up fighting, primarily to win in international contests..
at no time did newaza disappear or did those in judo stop practicing and exceling at it, it was up to individual...
Helio learned kodokan judo and perhaps, is one of the oldest living legends that shows the closest resemeblance to kodokan judo of the last century, Helio basically kept much of the same techniuqes, and expanded on his curriculum to fit his style of play..
if anything, the judo community as a whole has a lot to thank Helio for maintaining this link with judo..
bjj is kodokan judo as much as kodokan judo is bjj...all are derived fromt the same source, jigaro kano
kbits
Thanks for your information. Thats the reason i created this post. To find the real difference between this two arts with you.
Anyway, we are all agree that in a open Gi competition (Bjj, Judo and Kodokan), almost all the medals would go to brazilians. why? I am only asking.
Probably, unless you include people like Jimmy Pedro and Flavio Canto in the competition. And the open gi tournament you are talking about has been discussed here in detail. There's no way to have just an open gi tournament with each of those styles without adapting the sports specific points/awards to the tournament--ie if a bjj guy went against a good judo guy at a judo tournment and got ipponed, guess what-- he lost--according to judo rules. So rules would have to be changed and adapted so the competition was fair.
the last video in black and white was Kyuzo Mifune, 10th dan in judo back in the 1940's...Mifune was one of Kano's original students in judo and a talented instructor..in the video clip he was into his 70's...this is a good example of how judo was at that time..
Raspado
But obviously i am talking about a "rickson budo challenger". I mean, rules for tap out people, not for doing ipons.
Anyway, i think we are going to have a infinite debate :-) ..
i have been coming here for almost 7 years and i still see the same blind rhetoric and confirmation bias reasoning in some posts..remarkable..people believe what they want to see..
wayLand, i would like to read your opinion because as i have read about you, you have the experience to do it. I think that voiceofreason has argued to us very well. Rules are very important. Its not the same being/reach a bb after 6-10 years of training under one kind of rules than with another (for example, finishing vs making ipons).
voiceofreason:
thanks for your advice, but i did not ask for it
bandwidth:
if you are asking about the use of ippon in judo as an ultimate win, there is much information as to how and why this developed..mostly, jujitsu was a battlefield art, so upending an opponent meant disempowering them and easier to kill with small weapons..the same holds true with imobilizations, once this has been done, it is easier to kill the opponent..
my main point is that making general assumptions of what effectiveness judo athletes are in the grappling world (there are millions practicing worldwide, the second largest practiced sport behind soccer) is ludicrous..
of course sport rules will bias how a student trains..the whole point of the original thread was to notice and celebrate the undeniable truth of the link between early judo and bjj..we have had many examples of this provided, but still, the thread denegrates into "how one art notoriously sucks and is not real in the fighting world"
in summary, the whole use of ippon in judo via throw, pin or submission is to practice the skills used for complete dominance over an opponent, it is a method to develop training for the student..
WayLand: thank you very much for your information. I didnt know exacly the origin of the ipon :-). Anyway, the origin of the thread was what were the main differences between two arts, and for me, one of the main was the rules.
Amazing, there were sweeps with positioning like X-guard, de la riva etc... I'm sure not with entire games built around them but still very cool to see. Thos guys in the Kosen videos look to be 60yrs old and up, incredible!!
wayland, I agree with your early post. Too many narrow-minded people here-especially regarding this subject. Funny how people say oh, so and so would be killed- but we've never seen it happen.
voiceofreason:
Your points are not competely invalid.
But the distinction is not as clear as you would like to have it.
What's your MA experience?
Tomas