BJJ vs Kosen Judo

"the whole use of ippon in judo via throw, pin or submission is to practice the skills used for complete dominance over an opponent, it is a method to develop training for the student.."

Excellent point.

"Mifune is a badass .. his base is just ridiculous heh .. so smooth even at that age"

Agreed, sorta blows a hole in Helio's statement that he was too frail to execute the 'strength based techniques of the Japanese" so he refined them by making them leverage based.

nowinfused you can "nowrefuse" to igonore the overwhelming substantial evidence that clearly documents kodokan's extensive involvement with groundfighting and make claims that judo lacked complexity...you are entitled to your opinion..

from what i have research, practiced and learned about for over 30 years of study in grappling in general, notwithstanding 8 years of bjj i can only offer this..you are blatantly misguided...

current practices and gameplans with bjj and judo differ vastly due to mainly rules of play in sport, which inevitably determine outcomes in training..this does not apply as a generality, for if it did we would never see players in bjj do throws and top game ground work so well, nor would we see judoka excel in ground and guard work in sport..

the point is this, stating the obvious truth around this term "kosen" does not cheapen or take away from bjj and helio's contribution..i am merely trying to illustrate that what was then at the turn of the century was more similar...

it makes sense, less people in the world, less masters practicing jujitsu, less students more of a return to "club or organization" teachings rather than a methodically well applied curriculum...

what you see in bjj or kodokan judo references are the different pieces of the same pie...

again, your points about the value of ippon wins is heard, no one is trying to convince you that it is the best form of training, just explaining as to why it has come to be..

it is clear your bias has overshadowed your objectivity in looking beyond your belt..

ps, it would be kind to identify yourself accordingly to the posters via your profile..

"it makes sense, less people in the world, less masters practicing jujitsu, less students more of a return to "club or organization" teachings rather than a methodically well applied curriculum..."

What are you talking about? There is more information and development of submisison grappling and the gi arts as there ever has been. At what time in the past could you train online, download techniques online, purchase DVD's, be notified of events, and seminars, travel as easily, and archive as much knowledge? Never.

i am speaking about the spread of judo (jiujitsu) in the 1900's, that their was very little difference between applications due to the smaller number of people in the world practicing..

I have never stated kosen is gjj nor have i even put kosen up to the level that some have, in fact, to my knowledge, kosen was/is only a method of training that started in intrascholastic events..

my only point is that maeda was/is NOT kosen but kodokan judo of the time, that was taught world wide and that is the basis to gjj,

having said that, i am aware the judo of today and gjj likewise are clearly different,

much objection is to those that state judoists are by enlarge terrible at ground work and always were..in fact, earlier on they were the only ones known to the world practicing ground work because gjj was unto itself in brazil and did not have the widespread cross polinization like we have today..

your statements are poignant and are aimed at inflaming this argument and old concept..and this is my opposition to your posts..

who are you?

The Ippon throw ends the fight in Judo because it was considered if such
a throw was executed on a hard surface would end a real fight.

The Ippon from Pin ends the fight in Judo because it was considered that
striking with elbows or fists or head from a Pin would end a real fight.

The Ippon from submission ends the fight in Judo because it was
considered that a choke or joint lock would end a real fight.

I personally believe that BJJ and Judo are the same art seperated by 2
different sets of rules and as we all crosstrain in both the arts will over
time become closer again.

The stupidest rule in Judo IMO is not allowing the chin to be attacked
which results in poor Ne Waza players turtling and tucking their chins in.

I'd still like to see voiceofreasons credentials.

He could well be one of those guys that were poisoned by the blue pigment they use to color BJJ belts...

Tomas

Tomasd

Would be difficult for you to argue in stead of trying to talk shit about him? I think we are all enough inteligent to do it.

WayLand

Dont misunderstand me. I respect you and your curriculum. But i would like to ask you something. You are a 4 degree BB in Judo. 20-30 years of Judo training. Something i will not achieve in my entire life. But .. whats the reason you are "still" a brown belt in Bjj? (i am asking with all my respect to you). Or what was the reason you started to practise Bjj? I think it is this way because Bjj is a "bit different" to Judo, isnt it? Or perhaps i am wrong.

Why? Because on the internet it is really easy to download a bunch of stuff and then sound smart. His arguments are not completely hollow, but there's a kind of "hyper" edge to some of them.

I don't need to see his diploma, if he says "yeah I've been training BJJ for 10 years with ATT" then I'll assume that there is substantial experience behind his arguments. If he says "yeah I roll with my friend who is a wing chun guy but is REALLY good at submissions and we roll in my parents basement on old sheep skins" I'll know he's making it up...

Tomas

bandwidth:

no offense taken, i believe the reason is the following:

1) i teach under a judo umbrella and my buddy teaches under the bjj umbrella, this way no competition for students and in fact, we both have the same group
2) bb in bjj come by the instructor, not under a grading application curriculum like judo, in judo, when you meet a certain point, you go for a grading, they test your technique, assess your tournament standings and evaluate
3) because of 1), i am not rolling with my buddy as much, hence, I am not in the scene as much, notwithstanding all of the above, my classes do as much ground work and bjj and my students are browns and purples who study judo with my and train with me
4) i can't be at two places at once, so i incorporate my groundwork practice and study under the judo class

FWIW, i attend as many seminars as possible and would regularly roll with my bjj counterpart on our own..but this takes time and you must pick your schedule..

in short, i have more to offer sharing my judo and the direct link with my wrestling and bjj to students, then it is for me to leave all of the above alone and just train bjj by itself..i feel i can explore more this way and also help the students better..

i also box, which is purely just for me alone, no teaching (of course) just me and the trainer and the other boxers..

i will get my bb eventually, hopefully sooner than later, but i know enough it comes from the prof, not from me..

Tomasd

Then, if Marcelo Garcia says that Bjj is so different to Judo or Kodokan .. would be a valid argument for you? because Marcelo said it. I think that an argument could be perfectly correct not having a super diploma. If we continue with your argument , sport analysts couldnt write opinions in newspapers.

one other point, where i am we never have this issue come up about the judo/bjj debate (only in jest), in fact, it is really quite simple, put up or shut up..in other words, go and play with each other and explore and see what happens..

my student roster in my judo class is roughly half (50%) of those who come to me via bjj first, and it seems to be growing, because in my class and school there is no difference, just solid fighting and multiple use of language interactively (omo plata, ude garami, chicken wing etc.)..

when i roll with my bjj students, leg locks, shoulder locks etc are allowed in addition to pins; when rolling with non-bjj background students, the leg locks etc are out,

i am really fortunate to have such a good club, solid students and an excellent bjj community behind/in front of me...ttt for bravado jj

Bandwith:
It's not really an argument but rather an opinion.
So if Garcia says that I respect that opinion.
When a noname UG troll says the same thing, I'll have my doubts about the validity of that opinion.

Kosen judo looks a lot like BJJ. But not having experience in kosen judo, I'd leave it at that.
If voiceofreason has experience in kosen judo and BJJ, his opinion would have value. It would also make this thread shorter.

Tomas

I think its like full contact and Muay Thai. They are so equal each other in terms of techniques. But the way they train and rules makes the big difference. Somebody that doesnt understand about contact sports would say are the same sport. I think :-).

Just go to Gene Lebell's school, its closer and cheaper (LA), not to mention same stuff.

BJJ vs Fusen-Ryu imo...

voiceofreason:

What is your experience with kosen judo?

(1) have done it
(2) have seen clips on the internet

What is your experience in BJJ

(1) have done it
(2) have seen clips on the internet

===========================

The guard work shown in the videos is VERY similar to what we do in my BJJ club. Delariva and all.

My judo sensei is 75 so you can consider him "old school", he trained mostly under first generation Japanese here in the US. People who knew Kano.
Some of the armbar setups I have learned from him are the same I drill in my BJJ club.

I wouldn't be able to make the distinction you are making just by watching the kosen videos. I therefore hope that you have some experience that I am lacking that allows you to see things that I am not seeing.

Tomas

At bottom, Kosen judo describes a set of rules for competition (the national universities listed before still hold competitions with these rules) that doesn't 'disadvantage' groundwork.

I had a the rules list a few years ago when I was training casually (didn't compete), and IIRC, they included:

  1. Unlimited time on the ground
  2. no out of bounds- ie. you can't get a standup by dragging yourself out of the mat area
  3. Pulling guard (hikikomi in Japanese) allowed etc.

Yes, ground specialists such as Kyoto Uni traditionally do well at these comps, but it's still Judo.

With regards to the thread title, people are making the mistake of comparing modern BJJ with what they see on the old tapes- Kosen is what BJJ probably looked like 50 years ago. Heck, it's what Judo looked like 50 years ago.

Both BJJ and Judo have evolved greatly from those times- remember when leglocks were considered 'dirty' in BJJ? And even in Japan, the Judo guys are doing wrestling style lifts influenced by Euro players.

The two two have gone in two diffrent directions in modern times, but what's exciting is that they seem to be converging again.

"BTW, none of this means that BJJ and Judo aren't related. They clealry are. However, we never see the same kind of arguments in regards to sport Sombo which is more like modern Judo than BJJ is."

I think voice of reason is correct for the most part. However, the reason this kind of argument doesn't come up with sombo is that the sombo guys, while having their own origin myth concerning regional wrestling styles etc, don't really hold to it very much and are very much into judo as well as sombo, open to cross training etc. High level sombo guys compete in judo and vice versa since the two styles encountered one another.

Until recently bjj stuck rigidly to the Helio story where he adds "leverage" to deficient judo techniques. Helio hated judo and this had a long lasting effect causing bjj to define itself away from judo. Luckily this is now ending and the arts are converging again.