BJJ vs Kosen Judo

"And others with experience have stated an opposite ooinion. Sometimes people will see what they want to see.

There is no possible way that you can actuallly know every technique that was developed in BJJ, and every technique that others may use. Again, unless you have that power then you clearly cannot state that all of the techniques are the same.

It's a bold assumption based on relatively limited experience in comparison to all of the possible variations."

Voiceofreason, this above is the truth. This and vice versa. You can't really tell. I have never said I "know". You seem to have the strong opinion here, not me.

I'd totally agree with you if you had said that those techniques and concepts are not common knowledge in contemporary judo.
But were they ever? Who knows? The techs certainly LOOK similar, and that's all I can say. And that's all YOU can say unless you have experience that I don't.
So.

Tomas

"Until recently bjj stuck rigidly to the Helio story where he adds "leverage" to deficient judo techniques. Helio hated judo and this had a long lasting effect causing bjj to define itself away from judo. Luckily this is now ending and the arts are converging again."

Yeah, I think this is a very important part of the issue.

Tomas

"Thank God he did. Without that we would still be glaring at Van Damme films. It was very important for him to set himself apart. Afterall, he wasn't accepted in Judo either, due to his combat interests"

 

He didn't do anything Maeda hadn't already done to a greater extent. Maeda traveled the world testing against all styles, Helio just carried on the tradition. The only reason we know about it is because of Rorion's effort.

That letter was on the BJJ.org site but i'm not sure what has happened to it since the OTM merger - i have the text and have put it on the OTM Wiki for those interested. I used to think it was a troll job :o)

http://www.onthemat.com/wiki/index.php/BJJ_Report

interesting link :-)

"Thank God he did. Without that we would still be glaring at Van Damme films. It was very important for him to set himself apart. Afterall, he wasn't accepted in Judo either, due to his combat interests."

my understanding is the kodokan offered to promote helio to a high dan grade and he refused..i am unclear as to why but i have read before that the kodokan made attempts to allow helio to be involved and he rejected it...

helio was a rebel so to speak and did his own thing, so complying with kodokan protocol was definitely be hard to digest...either way, the kodokan new about the maeda/gracie link and what was going on..why on earth was kimura sent then to fight helio??

I like it how the title of this thread is "BJJ vs Kosen Judo", and then the first sentence of the first post reads "This is not a x vs y thread.".

Tomas

Judo and BJJ are clearly related and I think, believe and know that plenty of individuals have stated this and illustrated this. Lloyd Irvin, Dave Camarillo, myself and plenty others  hammer this point home on a constant basis. Are they different yes, do they go hand in hand without a doubt.

Now on to some other points. Some of  you on here who say that you have plenty of experience with Judoka - my first question would be "from where" and my second one would be "with who?" 

I've rolled with World class judo players that sucked on the ground and some that were pretty damn good. (no disrespect to the YMCA) But don't tell me how you submitted this black belt from some local YMCA club or this guy or that guy. Because judo people on the judo forum don't write - "Yeah, I threw this supposed BJJ black belt on his head".  The skill set is different and it is already a well known that the promotional standards in BJJ are tighter than judo.

The difference between Kosen Judo and Brazilian Jiujitsu is this.  Kosen Judo is Kosen Judo and BJJ is BJJ. They have different foci (foci is the plural of focus) and different curricula thus they are different. But I assure you, you would find the practices challenging and humbling. I've worked out with a couple guys with a Kosen Judo background in Japan and I've worked out with several members of the Sambo 70 club during some international training camps in spain and Italy. There are some bona fide non-BJJ gi grappling folks around the world. Believe me!!

 

Ryukyu
Maeda did teach Luiz Franca who also opened a dojo around the same time as the Gracies. He taught Oswaldo Fadda( 9th Dan who recently passed away). Fadda and Helio had school tourneys which the Gracie Academy always won. So Franca/Fadda were probably less techical than Carlos/Helio.

Rhadi, could you please tell me where did you train here in spain? i am from there and i would like to train in one of this gyms :-)

Maeda is actually considered the founder of Judo in Brazil (judo Brazil's webpage has/had links about him). There was also another Japanese immigrant there before him though...

at anyrate, Maeda taught a lot of people in Brazil.

The thing is, you and I can learn BJJ from Superman himself, but are YOU going to fight MMA? If not, you are just another one of hundreds of students. Even if you get a black belt in BJJ, if you don't fight MMA, AND you don't teach MMA, are you passing on Maeda's/Helio's/Carlos's, etc. legacy?

Maeda, and similar people that Kano sent around the world (guy who's name was sent to France was also great), were fighters. Fortunately Helio is passing this legacy on.

A couple of misconceptions have developed along the way though (in my non-credentialed opp only though).

1) Kimura was not sent to Japan specifically to beat Helio. The person that Helio beat prior is said to not have even placed at the All-Japan's, so he wasn't the #2 man, and Kimura was retired from active judo comp. (and probably had already refused to return those flags from that Emperor tournie and pissed off the Kodokan...). Kimura was in Brazil to make money from what has been posted before. Along the way he had a match with Helio...

2) BJJ and Sambo, while having a strong origin in judo, are defintely different arts than judo NOW. However, both have tried to conceal this at various times...ie. Helio did not discover "leverage". Maeda was SMALL, he used leverage too. End of the day, can you learn to fight with a shovel or how to throw elbows from the mount at a judo school (if you can, score!)?

3) Maeda taught a LOT of people in Brazil. Carlos Sr.'s role in developing BJJ seems to have been marginalized (in all of the old Gracie photos, you see both Carlos and Helio with similar belts and the rest with black belts) in the history we were told. The UFC was, unfortunately, started about 1 year after both Carlos Sr. and Kimura died (going by memory, could be off)!

4) Just as how the Gracies were able to "refine" judo, so are judokas or sambists able to "re-refine" their groundwork. It should come as no surprise if BJJ became a world wide sport (a real one) if the top team came from Japan, Russia, France, Germany, etc. They would LEARN groundwork the way the rest of the world learnt throws and started to beat the Japanese. It isn't rocket science (although teh Japanese still win the most in judo)...BJJers picked up leglocks pretty damn fast, didn't they? Might take a decade or two, but it would happen.

In the meantime, train in what you love...and RIGHT NOW, Japan is sending (at least once) their judo team to Brazil to train! That should tell you guys something...namely that Brazil ROCKS at groundwork. But now that the Japanese know this, wait 10 years and check again...people are people, but some countries put a lot more money into this than others.

"Fadda and Helio had school tourneys which the Gracie Academy always won."

This just isn't true. Gracie Magazine published a newpaper article that was like 50 years old that clearly reported the Gracie Academy losing a tounament to Fadda's school. It even had a quote from Helio about the loss.

Furthermore Fadda didn't even train with Maeda. Fadda train with Luiz Franco who in turn trained with Maeda.

Fadda's school used GJJ to win.
So some of Helio's players may have lost, BUT THE GJJ WON!!!!!

kosen looks great