BJJ w/out strikes in self-defense

There has been a lot of talk about BJJ being the superior martial art and most useful in self-defense.  But I'd like to hear some honest thoughts about BJJ as a self-defense because it's not too often that BJJ schools teach streetfighting tactics.  Most of the time the training is for competition only and without striking. 

I am talking BJJ alone as a self-defense as opposed to MMA training.   Please discuss!

My situation is somewhat unique.

I wasn't trained in a school. I started learning BJJ in 1990 from a Brazilian kid who went to my junior high school. I learned, and he taught, for the purpose of self defense, not competition.

My BJJ has always worked well for me, one on one, on the street if I needed it.

I work in a nightclub, so the majority of any altercations I've encountered in the last few years have usually had these common factors:

  • It's nothing personal. I try not to fight at all.

  • I have friends and co-workers present, so I don't worry about his friend soccer kicking or stomping me if it does go to the ground.

  • I usually don't strike, because, once again, it's nothing personal.

  • I lock the guy up, and point out the fact that it wasn't hard for me to get him where I have him. I inform him that I don't want to fight, that I don't want to hurt him, and that I don't take it personal.

  • I tell him that I'm not going to finish the fight. That I will let him up, and if the bar is still open, I'll even buy him a beer to show that there are no hard feelings.

That's how the majority have ended. Very, VERY few have turned into full blown fights.

My training always allowed me to keep a level head if I HAD to fight. It gave me the confidence I needed in most one on one situations.

But, as I've stated before, a variety of MA's may have something to offer you in self defense, aside from BJJ alone. Just keep in open mind.

Just depends on the situation. There's probably thousands of them....

i guess BJJ schools might not show self-defense techs, but GJJ schools do.

I am lucky...my BJJ instructor teaches GJJ self defense as well. I think conceptually most of it makes sense and is more practical than most other self defense applications from TMA's. But I have also been striking for a long time so I guess I feel confident with that too. IMO you need to be able to strike and grapple... for self defense & I think it might be tough to find a single school that meets ALL of your self defense needs. Most schools that teach BOTH boxing/kickboxing & groundfighting are going to be more MMA and sport oriented. Stick with the BJJ for now and you might want to pick up a boxing/kickboxing class just 1x a week later on.

brianmeyers,
Too bad more bouncers aren't as professional.

i taught at a school for teenage boys with behavioral
disorders. they were constantly starting fights with
each other which i had to break up. needless to say,
there were no strikes on my part. i usually would get
in between, double underhook the aggressor, jack up
his arms so he couldn't strike me, and get my hips in
to avoid a knee in the balls. just controlled him till
either A) he settled down or B) proper security showed
up.

BJJ is more than learning isolated techniques, it's about learning to use your body, and how your body interacts with someone elses body

Actually, that is the goal of ALL functional martial arts methodologies.

I personally think that JiuJitsu as it was taught before the 20th century was one of the most effective martial arts in the world.... EVER. BJJ, like Judo and JJJ, is just an offshoot of that, like a single branch on a tall tree.

I think it might be tough to find a single school that meets ALL of your self defense needs. Most schools that teach BOTH boxing/kickboxing & groundfighting are going to be more MMA and sport oriented. Stick with the BJJ for now and you might want to pick up a boxing/kickboxing class just 1x a week later on.

Lots of wisdom in that statement. There are a few schools, such as mine, that focus on both self-defense applications as well as the sport training. (I teach standup, clinch, and specialize in groundwork for sport - but also do a lot of awareness and non-physical conflict management instruction, and am also certified by Tony Blauer in his Personal Defense Readiness Coach program).

Everything you do in sport WILL be useful in the street, as long as you realize that anything you do for sport that does NOT use striking will have to be HEAVILY modified. Anything you do for sport that DOES involve striking will have to be partially modified, and anything you do that is purely for "street" must either address the non-physical (other than the actual "fighting") components of self-defense, or else be able to stand up in an MMA-like sport environment as far as drilling it and developing it as a skill goes.

Adam

Kwik is a very enlightened martial artist.

Self Defense stuff= eye gouges, groin shots, throat rips, etc..

All the sport stuff will work in a self defense situation regardless of how well one knows the "dirty trick" stuff. The flip side is that the dirty trick stuff will not work for a guy who does not have sound fundamentals (sport stuff). Put a pure sport guy against a pure "dirty trick" guy (Read: one who relies on eye gouges and throat grabs to end a fight, but has never done it against anyone) and my money is on the sport guy.

I agree that the striking aspect has to be trained in a grappling art if for nothing else but to be able to avoid and defend but learning striking offense is not mandatory. I have done numerous challenge matches where I only grappled against someone using "no rules at all" and have been successful every time (got bit once but still won). Royce did this impressivley in most all his UFC wins. Most guys on the street are scrubs and cannot handle even a 2 year blue belt with no striking offense. Also, sport training helps prepare one mentally by giving them the ability to cope with stress and the adrenal dump.

Bottom line, sport training revolves around the fundamental basics that all martial artists/fighters should know. It's the foundation. The "dirty trick" stuff is simply the roof on a larger structure. To train all the "dirty trick" self defense stuff, and to put all the stock into it, without having the sport aspect training to build the fundamentals to be able to deliver it, is like trying to put a roof on a building with no foundation... it will fall in and ultimately fail.

Peace-
Cam

I've used BJJ once in real life. Drunk marine was trying to go after a bunch of people one after another. I knew the guys girlfriend so I knew I didn't wanna throw any blows so I just held him, took him down and held him in a sidemount telling him to cool off. 10 minutes later, after I thought everything was cool, people told me he was chasing someone down the street. I got kind of upset this time cuz he was talking sh*t to my best friend, so I grabbed him, got behind him, did the old school trip takedown where you end up in a mount, it was more of a throw cuz my adrenaline was pumping by now, then I just held him in mount and yelled at him to calm down. Everything cooled off after that, I didn't throw one punch so I was pretty satisfied.

www.greenwhaleproductions.com

TheJET

"But I'd like to hear some honest thoughts about BJJ as a self-defense because it's not too often that BJJ schools teach streetfighting tactics. Most of the time the training is for competition only and without striking.

I am talking BJJ alone as a self-defense as opposed to MMA training. Please discuss!"

First of all, I do karate no BJJ.

It seems to me that as any fighting style develops a popular competitive format competitive minded people will downplay (if not eliminate) stuff they can't use in competitions.

Look at wrestling, boxing, judo, karate, TKD (did I say TKD) and on and on and on.

Why?

Its a matter of time. If your main focus isn't self defense and the rules only allow a subset of what your style does then you'll likely spend most time ignoring the stuff not applicable to competition. Styles can become very very good at fighting with people of that style, but other uses (fighting against the untrained, fighting against other trained people) need different approaches.

Mark

I have used pure BJJ in a street fight. Actually, it was quite comical and earned me a slight reputation as a "badass" which I am very far from being. It was about 3 years ago over a girl (surprise). We were both about the same exact size also. I was about 2 inches taller but about 5 - 8 pounds lighter.

Here is the deal, I started dating a girl who had just broken up with a boyfriend of 3 years. I was 27 then, and she and her ex were both 22. He talked tough big time. Tried to fight me 2 or 3 times and i just avoided it. He trashed my car (though the police said I had no proof since I didn't see him), would follow the two of us around and mouth off. Finally, it was just the perfect situation. I had a couple of my friends he had a couple of his, so I finally said, "Let's do this, one on one, me and you, no one else will get involved or anything."

We squared off at each other and he charged me, I sprawled, jumped right around to his back and set in the rear choke with ease. I let go, pushed him away and told him that was fun I wanted to do it again. This time he tried to hit me with one of those long looping punches from downtown, I blocked and executed a hip toss, controlling his arm, knee in belly asking if he wanted me to punch him or let him up for one last try. I even went as far as asking him if there was anything I could do that might help him a little.

Now, wanting to have even more fun, I went classic Royce stance, stepped in with the low front kick, clinched ended up on top and told him we could do this all night if he wanted to. He finally gave up on the fight and the girl. Now we are married and have no problems out of the guy. I never threw a punch or actually submitted for that matter. As Rorion would say, it was like a cat toying with a mouse

It sounds likes there are a lot of different ways to define "self defense" and "real fights," and maybe not a single approach that works or fails for all of those definitions.

Edited for double post

Brianmeyers, I really respect you for that

[ It seems to me that as any fighting style develops a popular competitive format competitive minded people will downplay (if not eliminate) stuff they can't use in competitions. ]

I have noticed the exact opposite. Most TMA guys fall into the "lazy" category or the D&D playing nerd category that are looking for that "magic pill" to make them a badass overnight. They won't put in the time and hard work that it takes to become a good sport competitor (or learn the fundamental techniques) and instead opt for the magic pill techniques that they are told will automatically "win a fight in the mean streets in seconds, over anyone"... things like eye gouging and nut grabbing. They put all their stock into these magic pill techniques and discount "sport" aspects.

I have been into MAs for a long time and I have never seen a magic pill guy beat a sport guy.

Peace-
Cam

Orion

"Most TMA guys fall into the "lazy" category or the D&D playing nerd category that are looking for that "magic pill" to make them a badass overnight. They won't put in the time and hard work that it takes to become a good sport competitor (or learn the fundamental techniques) and instead opt for the magic pill techniques"

Lots of karate guys aren't like this. However, lots of these guys also NEVER practice thigh kicks because "I'll get dq'd if I hit him there"

Replace thigh kicks with hooks, uppercuts, elbows, kicks to the knee, takedowns and joint locking/breaking and you'll see my point.

"that they are told will automatically "win a fight in the mean streets in seconds, over anyone"... things like eye gouging and nut grabbing."

You are right. Lots of people don't realize there are no magic pills and stuff like eye gouging/nut grabbing is difficult to pull off with someone who's trying to kick the crap out of you.

"They put all their stock into these magic pill techniques and discount "sport" aspects.

I have been into MAs for a long time and I have never seen a magic pill guy beat a sport guy."

The magic pill guys don't even enter into my discussion. They are, IMNSHO, people who are too willing to accept everything they are told. Frankly, God (or evolution or chance) gave us brains and the magic pill folks deliberately choose not to use them.

Mark

Your Father

"It's insane to suggest that the average person must train like an MMA fighter in order to effectively defend themselves."

?

What do you mean? Train 6-8 hours a day?

I think the average person should train in a MMA like fashion. Some slob attacks you and you have no idea what his weapons/skills are. You need to be able to deal with striking, grappling and a variety of weapons.

" If that were the casde, then you would have many empty schools. "

I'm at the point where I don't think this would be a bad idea. MA for the masses has made karate and TKD a mess.

Mark

YourFather

"Well, weapons aside (this really is a moot point for self-defense anyway)"

Moot point? I don't know. Their presence does tip the scales waaaaay out of your favor but - never say die, until you are dead.

"BJJ does prpeare you to face any opponent. You may not feel that it effectively prepares you how to face an MMA opponent, but the odds of anyone facing an MMA type opponent on the street, are very slim."

As to what BJJ does and doesn't prepare you for, I can't comment. I don't do BJJ. On the surface, such a statement sounds like the statements made about karate and kung fu when I was a kid.

I will grant you that, being a grappling style, its much easier to see if you are doing it right in training. You do a takedown, either he goes down or not. You move to a position, either you get there or he stops you. You do a sub, either it works or it doesn't. That, IMNSHO, the any grappling methods greatest strength - instant feedback in training.

"Why would someone want to dedicate so much time and money, for such a small possibility? "

I'm not advocating training under the assumption that everyone is an MMA champion (although it does satisfy my sense of overkill). I do advocate strikers training against grappling attacks/striking attacks outside of their realm and grapplers training against striking attacks/grappling attacks outside of their realm.

Why spend the time and money? Some folks, like me, enjoy the activity so spending the time/money isn't an issue.

Mark

All I can say, is that after you've trained for an amount of time (just a little under 2 yrs here), certain skills become instinct.

I got sucker punched from behind at a bar while trying to break up a fight. I hadn't been in any fight in over 6 years, so the first punch rocked me cause I forgot what a punch felt like (honest!). My immediate reaction was to turn and shoot for the guy'slegs. I basically wrapped and turtled around the guys one leg while he was trying to punch my skull (no damage obviously). Before my logical mind activated again to think about doing some offense, bouncers and other friends showed up to even teh score and stop the fight.

I basically trained only sport jiu-jitsu, with the very occasional mixed martial arts class. So, I think there must be something to what KWIK says about the applicability of sport training to fighting instincts....then again, I thought this issue was already settled between UFC 1 to 5.