supersaiyan - apparently some folks here havent seen Marcelo tool BEn Askren with literal EASE
That's the exception to what normally happens. 
BJJ dudes remind me of Karate. They have all these stories how someone "beat" someone in a gym in a relaxed atmosphere.
Is that the same Marcelo Garcia that lost to a shitty 3rd rate judoka back in Japan ? Took his back and couldn't sink a proper choke for 10 minutes ?
Competition != Training.
I wouldnt call a judoka "shitty" ...hell even Mike Fowler lost to a decent Judoka about 4 years ago despite his wrestling and BB bjj skills he had while training at Lloyd Irvin.
BUt then again i guess BJ Penn mopping the bb judokas in a tourney ( at WHITE BELT) is also on the other side of that stick
When bjj gets athletes of the caliber d1 even d2 wrestlers are we will see a comparison. Until then wrestling will usually beat bjj.
you have to say it 4 more times at least so we know you really mean it
ThePoopWizard - When bjj gets athletes of the caliber d1 even d2 wrestlers are we will see a comparison. Until then wrestling will usually beat bjj.
its just harder to guage this since they are 2 different goals ..if i was American wrestlers vs Brazilian wrestlers it would be more of a similar comparison.
supersaiyan -ThePoopWizard - When bjj gets athletes of the caliber d1 even d2 wrestlers are we will see a comparison. Until then wrestling will usually beat bjj.
its just harder to guage this since they are 2 different goals ..if i was American wrestlers vs Brazilian wrestlers it would be more of a similar comparison.
No not really being athletic doesn't affect what sport your in or vice versa if you're athletic you're athletic. If you're an awkward fuck you're awkward.
Brazillian wrestlling isn't comparable because there best athletes aren't in wrestling they are in soccer.
If the same guys playing pro soccer wrestled or did bjj they'd excell in it.
Bjj doesn't have many high level athletes like us wrestling does. That's a fact. Notice how much better us wrestlers do in mma rather than bjjers of any nationality including but not limited too brazil.
But there are always exceptions. Being explosive fast can only go so far on it's own. But paired with bjj or wrestling it is beautiful.
mtone88 - if you're talking a D1 wrestler who has never trained a day of BJJ in his life vs. a BJJ guy who's never taken a wrestling class once in his life
the bjj guy wins 10/10
/thread
Mendes been training jits like a madman for a while now, he's a world class grappler now, not just a d1 wrestler
To be fair, I have friends and training partners that have gone and done the videotaped roll at Marcelos.
Theres really no point to going there and using the opportunity to try and stall and hold him down.
In a comp Im sure Askren would be super cautious and not engage and try and get points for a TD and ride the clock.
Youre getting to roll with the best guy at that weight on the planet.
If you got to wrestle with Cael in practice would you force the clinch constantly or want to experience a lightning fast shot where his hand winds up INSIDE your shoe?
HELWIG - To be fair, I have friends and training partners that have gone and done the videotaped roll at Marcelos.
Theres really no point to going there and using the opportunity to try and stall and hold him down.
In a comp Im sure Askren would be super cautious and not engage and try and get points for a TD and ride the clock.
Youre getting to roll with the best guy at that weight on the planet.
If you got to wrestle with Cael in practice would you force the clinch constantly or want to experience a lightning fast shot where his hand winds up INSIDE your shoe?
Pablo Popovitch submitted Ben Askren in about a minute at ADCC 2009. He did win his first match of the tournament by sub though.
Askren then entered the 2010 No Gi World Championships at the purple belt level, and lost his first match via advantages.
Take that for what it's worth.
I wrestled D1 many years ago and have never taken a BJJ class in my life. I believe a BJJ guy would submit me pretty easily since I would never see the sub coming and have no training on how to counter.
However, I do think the superior athleticisim and conditioning of a wrestler combined with some submission defense training would tip things in the wrestlers favor.
All speculation of course as I'm way past the point of putting this to the test.
ThePoopWizard -supersaiyan -No not really being athletic doesn't affect what sport your in or vice versa if you're athletic you're athletic. If you're an awkward fuck you're awkward.ThePoopWizard - When bjj gets athletes of the caliber d1 even d2 wrestlers are we will see a comparison. Until then wrestling will usually beat bjj.
its just harder to guage this since they are 2 different goals ..if i was American wrestlers vs Brazilian wrestlers it would be more of a similar comparison.
Brazillian wrestlling isn't comparable because there best athletes aren't in wrestling they are in soccer.
If the same guys playing pro soccer wrestled or did bjj they'd excell in it.
Bjj doesn't have many high level athletes like us wrestling does. That's a fact. Notice how much better us wrestlers do in mma rather than bjjers of any nationality including but not limited too brazil.
But there are always exceptions. Being explosive fast can only go so far on it's own. But paired with bjj or wrestling it is beautiful.
good assessement man :)
leftlegtrumpcard - I have grappled with city champs and state champs. I played with a gi but have rolled no-gi for about four years. It was easy to sub the wrestlers. I would imagine that a bjjbb would sub a d1 wrestler with no sub experience pretty easy. I think there are video's of rickson rolling with college wrestlers somewhere. I seen them on YouTube I think. <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>
"Hello everyone. A lot of you have wondered how I got into submission grappling. Well one day I got this call from some guy who said "the best Jiu-Jitsu fighter in the world is in town, do you want to fight him?" I said "what are the rules?" The guy tried to intimidate me by saying "There are no rules!" I didn't know what to think. Were we going to gouge each others eyes out or bite each other's throats out. Thinking it might end in disability or even death for one of them, I said "O.K., tell him to meet me in the BYU wrestling room a week from Thursday". When the day arrived, I walked into the BYU wrestling room and saw a latino looking guy with the front of his head shaved and the back of his head he had a long braided pony tail. He looked like the muay thai guy in "Kumite". He was sitting on his butt scooting into BYU Head Coach Alan Albright, trying to hook Alan's feet with his feet. Alan just kept pushing him away. So I walk in and he comes over and says "Are you the guy". I said "yep". Then he said, unlike the caller who said it was "no rules", "What I do is punch, elbow, knee, head butt, but we're not going to do that today. We'll just roll around and try to get each other in submission holds, and if one of us gets caught, we tap out". Relieved there wasn't going to be a homicide that day, I still didn't know any submission holds and I spent a lot of energy trying to invent new moves on the spot. After about about 20 minutes of me being on top of him while he either had me in the guard or I had him in a cradle, I tapped out from a triangle choke. I asked him to go again and he tapped me out again after about another 20 minutes. I was stunned. All the years of training and I had never learned these moves. Lucky for me, I picked wrestling as my sport so the transition would only require learning some new positions and moves from those positions. The mat sense and conditioning would be the same and wrestling takedowns were better. I asked him his name and he said "Rickson Gracie", who was perhaps the most skilled Jiu-Jitsu expert in the world.
Hey, 2006 called and it wants its thread back.
I wrestled D1 about 20 years ago, and can still take down most BJJ black belts at will (the top guys, like Saulo, not so much)
But agreed, once its on the ground, its a different story
comes down to the individual.
I agree with the original point that while wrestling is great, part of what makes these guys so good is they have been weeded out over the years to be the cream of the athletic crop
supersaiyan,
I meant to say this particular judoka is relatively weak going up against a BJJ God. It was primarily a ground battle too, and Garcia couldn't do anything.
Point is really, in competition, better technique is really just 1 dimension and very often, not the deciding one: game plans, exploiting the rules, strength, playing for points...you can easily lose to people whose technique sucks.
That video of Askren and Marcelo doesn't mean shit in this thread unless you post the two of them going at it under wrestling rules as well. Yes, Ben looked like a white belt but start them from their feet and count points etc. Not to discount Marcelo but Ben is in Marcelo's world here.
PrinceAlbert - That video of Askren and Marcelo doesn't mean shit in this thread unless you post the two of them going at it under wrestling rules as well. Yes, Ben looked like a white belt but start them from their feet and count points etc. Not to discount Marcelo but Ben is in Marcelo's world here.
Ya I don't think narcello would get a takedown and im sure Ben could take him down get his two stand up and repeat with ease