Date: 23-Sep-00 | 09:58 PM
I want to thank for member "m.g." for sending me a copy of Okano's book.
This book really surprised me when it came to the techniques that Okano was teaching. Many of the subissions he taught are illegal in today's Olympic judo and is the closest thing I've ever seen to BJJ. I was also astonished to Okano doing stuff like the Indian Death Lock(a leglock)!
There were many techniques that Okano taught in this book that I was familar with and there were also many which I was not. Some techniques made me think, "Wow, that's was interesting! I'm going to have to try that one!" while others had me thinking, "I can't believe this technique is in a book! That's exactly what Joe Moreira taught me!".
To be honest, I was very surprised to see a judo player with such vast knowledge in submission grappling. I do not mean any disrespect to judo players, it's just that none of judo black belts I have come across seemed to have the similar type of knowledge. Personally, I believe that many of these techniques have been lost amongst the average judo players because of the strong emphasis on Olympic style judo competition.
ps. I thought that judo players would appreciate it...(see, we do know armbars =)
Good informative post. Just another bit of support to show that BJJ came from pre-war Kodokan Judo, or in better terms, evolved from Judo Ne-Waza.
>>>>>>To be honest, I was very surprised to see a judo player with such vast knowledge in submission grappling. I do not mean any disrespect to judo players, it's just that none of judo black belts I have come across seemed to have the similar type of knowledge. Personally, I believe that many of these techniques have been lost amongst the average judo players because of the strong emphasis on Olympic style judo competition.
That is exactly the problem, and why so many BJJ'ers lose it when they hear that their art evolved from Judo. I'm not looking to start a war here by any maens, but facts are facts. There just are not that many instructors around that care (or know much of) the COMPLETE Judo ground game. I know quite a few BJJ people, most are friends of mine, and they'll agree that the ground work that I know and study is almost identical to theirs.
agreed...Isao Okano competed in the 60s, so at least some people in Japan were 'keeping it real'...
btw, he was armbarred in the Kodokan before the Tokyo Olympics by a Russian (assuming that Isao Okano did compete in the 60s, and is the guy I think it is), so those sambists weren't bad either (mind you, Okano may have armbarred the Russian as well, I just know that at least once he didn't since the story is in Russian Judo)
You won't start a war here with that comment, most will agree with it. It's the comment that "such and such is not in judo" that will start a war. Judo is more than just an Olympic sport. In many ways the Olympics has been great for judo, in other ways it hasn't. If you start looking into judo books published between 1900-1935 (the time when judo was taught to the gracies), you would be very surprised at what you'll see. Lots of interesting stuff illegal in competition. Sports competitions are designed to be reasonably safe. I appreciate that and don't want to see it changed...no heel hooks or neck cranks for me, thanks. Olympic/IJF rules judo is part of a greater thing called judo.
I don't think so. Read my post on that
same thread. This book reflects Okano
personal grappling style and the type
of Judo taught at Japanese police
department then Judo in general.
Glad you brought that here as I really can't comment there...
... but I highly disagree.
Once again we see that people are going to judge recreation clubs with actual training academys for Judo. Most Judo programs in this country are ran by people with limited skill; in a not for profit setting; who are there to help Judo grow at a grass roots level.
Yet if you go to the IOC; or ANY program ran by a top level Judoka; you are going to find the kind of newaza training that Okano speaks to. Okano was Pat Burris's sensei; and Pat was Ron Tripp's sensei.
Also, the comment about studying "jujitsu" has to be placed in context. In reality he is saying to study the old methods of Judo (pre 1945). You must always remember the revisionist history used to get the Kodokan reopened.
The methods of training Okano speaks to can be found at any high level training location around the world.
From what it sounds like, there seems to me a very big difference between the ground grappling skills of judo black belts throughout the world.
If what you say it true, then I think a lot of judo black belts I've come across talked a bigger game than the skills they had in reality. But I guess you find that kind of behavior in every art.
I wasn't trying to start a war...=)
for the record, I DO BELIEVE that some judokas have the necessary ground skills to impress a bjjer (ie. Kashiwazaki, Sato, Adams, Quellmazz, etc.), but I also realize that I personally have always put more emphasis into learning throwing, so it all depends on how balanced a game you are personally trying to develop (ie. Bolo has spent 7/8 years on newaza skills from expert Brazilians, that sambo guy, Roy, etc....so his ground game right now will be better than mine in 10 years since I prefer to learn more standup stuff as well (about 60/40 for me with standup/ground, and I'm lazy when I train anyway ;o)
"If what you say it true, then I think a lot of judo black belts I've come across talked a bigger
game than the skills they had in reality. But I guess you find that kind of behavior in every art. "
The older I get, the better I was.....
I see your point to a point. But I have to disagree. I don't think you'll find the kind of grappling style Okano shows in his book very common among Judokas in Japan or anywhere outside of the places I mentioned which is the Japanese police departments.
At least not as a "newaza program" run by elite judo players or any Judo (save a few).
From what I can tell by reading Okanos words in both the preface and afterword of this book, the type of grappling Okano shows wasn't that common and in fact was dying out.
Dying out in the sense the few people were teaching it even in Japan.
It seems a great deal of Okano's skills were nurtured by the hands of a Judoka who was experience at groundfighting. This seems to be the typical Japanese way.
The Japanese Judo System may have give Okano the foundation but it was the tutulege of a more experienced Judoka in this specific area that really made the difference. This is why I don't see this book reflecting Judo groundfighting but Okano's groudfighting.
In all my years of studying Judo (and Karate) from a Japanese native has taught me alot about their culture and how they view instruction. There is the system of instruction which Judo is and their is the aprentice type instruction which is very common. If a person really wants to get to a level of high skill in Judo in Japan especially in a specific area he will track down a individual instructor who is specialize in that area and become their student.
I don't have much time to get into this but believe me this "udeshi" type training is really the key to the development of Okano's grappling skills and not necessarily any Judo program that may exist in Japan. In fact Okano himself went on to set up his own "Udeshi" type training for others who wanted to develop their skills too. He describes this in his book.
mg, I am VERY!!! interested in this book. Can you help me?
First; read my Ne-waza of Judo thread to see what Kotani Sensei was saying about it.
Second; right now I have been unable to locate the book on any of the out of print book searches.
There are a couple of Judo in Action books (grappling techniques) out there.
All you can do is keep looking.
No - you just need to find an Instructor that has the ability and knowledge to show you the whole picture. I'm not knocking those who want to learn/teach Sport Judo, but for me Combatives is the way to go. However, I will be competing in the Great Lakes open for the fun of it. Wish me well!
Can't find the thread you're talking about.
It is much easier if you all e-mail me at firstname.lastname@example.org
I guess I have work to do tomorrow....
What questions could you ask to see if they teach this kind of real judo. I should say what are the right questions to ask?
You simply watch the classes. See what they are doing. There is great overlap in technique so any Judo training will be of some help.
It just depends on what your final goals are...