"orcus reasoning is hilarious to me. Only a couple of years ago he was arguing why those guys in Japan should be ranked higher for no reason at all over their UFC counterparts. But now that BJ is involved in the discussion he is fine with that reasoning"
I don't think BJ has beaten anyone "ranked" as a top 10 fighter by the robotic smac system, nor do I think he has beaten the most "top 10 quality" fighters, nor am I convinced he is the best fighter in the division yet as far as demonstration of ability goes (the latter two being "my" main criteria). Is that clear enough?
In other words, by NO reasoning other than nuthugging fascination with his "prodigy" reputation and reports of how good he is "rolling" can I see calling him "#1" or "the best". No, I don't factor in what other fighters say in interviews.
Most top 10 quality fighters?
What makes Hansen a more quality fighter than Stevenson?
What makes Alvarez a more quality fighter than Sherk?
This is the same argument you made less than two years ago when Gomi was number 1 and Florian and Sherk had just fought for the title you hypocrite
mikey burnett - BJ is 1. at 155, maybe at 170.....sorry its true
+1
"What makes Hansen a more quality fighter than Stevenson?
What makes Alvarez a more quality fighter than Sherk?"
Maybe nothing (certainly nothing in Eddie's case). That gives BJ two wins over "quality fighters" at LW in the last what, five years? Six years?
Aoki has three wins over quality fighters this year alone (JZ, Uno, Alvarez).
He also got KTFO by Hansen only a few months ago
But seriously, lol @ questioning whether or not BJ has beaten the most top 10 quality fighters at lightweight. Do you honestly think the two wins over Sherk and Stevenson are the most and highest quality wins of any fighter at lightweight?
its not just about who beat who...it CANNOT be just about who beat who...why? because unless every fighter has fought the exact same people, it is impossible to assess rankings based on that metric alone...i agree that the caliber of opponents is ONE of the metrics that you use to evaluate a fighters rank...but it is not the ONLY metric...it can't be, because again, not everyone has fought the same people...you HAVE to take skill into account, which BJ has hands down over aoki and is the reason why if you asked every single person in the top 10 (including aoki himself) who the best is at 155--they would tell you BJ PEnn...but of course, dorcus knows better than the top 10 fighters at 155 right?
"LOL i like how you have 2 pro fighters in this very thread, both claiming their opinion is thathe is #1 at 55, and those opinions mean nothing to some people"
Why should they? Their opinions are no more valid than mine. We are not talking about who feels the strongest to roll with, or whose punches hurt the most, or something else that their "pro fighter" status would make them more knowledgeable about than I am (by training with or fighting against BJ). We've seen the same fights.
Should I seriously be bowing down to the opinions of guys who said BJ "might be #1 at 170" despite the fact that he is 1-2 at that weight, and the one guy he beat stopped him in the rematch? That is completely nonsensical (no offense).
Here's my reasons (again) why BJ has not PROVEN himself to be #1, either in terms of rankings or in terms of "who's the best":
1) He does not have the best wins.
2) He does not have the most wins.
3) He is not consistent.
4) He has never yet won more than three fights in a row.
What are the pro fighters' reasons for saying he IS #1?
orcus - But seriously, lol @ questioning whether or not BJ has beaten the most top 10 quality fighters at lightweight. Do you honestly think the two wins over Sherk and Stevenson are the most and highest quality wins of any fighter at lightweight?
But you are at the same time saying Aoki is number one because he has wins over three (one more than BJ) quality lightweights. He has one more "quality" win but he also got KTFO not that long ago
"it CANNOT be just about who beat who...why? because unless every fighter has fought the exact same people, it is impossible to assess rankings based on that metric alone"
I agree.
"...i agree that the caliber of opponents is ONE of the metrics that you use to evaluate a fighters rank...but it is not the ONLY metric...it can't be, because again, not everyone has fought the same people...you HAVE to take skill into account"
Caliber of opponents, and how a fighter does against those opponents, IS how you take skill into account.
Choking out Stevenson (Florian did it far easier) and outjabbing Sherk (a wrestler who made virtually no serious attempt to wrestle) is not enough to convince me that BJ has the most skill in the division. If any other fighter did exactly what BJ did in those two fights -- the only quality LWs BJ has beaten in over five years -- no one on the fucking PLANET would say "omg this guy is the best, #1 without question, he would wreck every other lightweight". NO ONE. But what, you add it to a five year old win over Gomi (who was tooled far easier by Aurelio and Kitaoka), a draw with Uno, a loss to Jens, and a 7-year old win over Uno and somehow that adds up to "best lightweight on the planet"? And you SERIOUSLY don't understand why I disagree?
For example, Florian just tooled Stevenson, he has a good string of LW wins going (certainly better than any run BJ has ever put together), but if he rematched Sherk right now and used his reach to outjab him, then eventually caught and finished him, you homos would STILL be saying BJ would wreck him. Why is that? Because you are not going by observation and reason, you are going by nuthuggery.
It is 100% the same as the nuthuggery Vitor Belfort got for years, riding off that one win over Wanderlei a hundred years ago. It took like three losses in a row before people finally started realizing that no matter how good he was on paper, Vitor was not "The Phenom" everyone thought he was.
Joe Lauzon -Joe, you and Mikey both agree on this. How can you rate BJ as the best at 170? I really can't understand that.mikey burnett - BJ is 1. at 155, maybe at 170.....sorry its true
+1
Oh and as far as his consistency. It has more to do with his habit of jumping between weightclasses.
As a lightweight he is 9-1. His only loss at that weightclass was avenged. He has wins over Din,Uno,Serra,Gomi,Stevenson,Sherk
you dont only take into account the skill exhibited between common opponents, because again, not everyone has fought the same people and beyond that...styles make fights...you assess skill based on watching that fighter fight...of course skill cannot be the only metric, but it is one of the metrics you use...and comparing bj to vitor is not fair at all...yes vitor has #1 ranking talent but he did not have the type of wins that bj has had...you must take ALL factors into consideration...
how can you really justify saying that aoki is #1 when he HIMSELF says bj is #1...really were you one of those retards in kindergarten that kept trying to fit the circle peg into the square hole and your mommy kept telling you it was because you were "special"?
im with Joe and Mikey! WAR BJ!
I also think blow jobs are #1.
C'mon... no one was as immature as me to post this? C'MON, PEOPLE! YOU'RE SLIPPIN'!!!
"Best" and "#1 rank" are not mutually exclusive fellas. Easy.
"But you are at the same time saying Aoki is number one because he has wins over three (one more than BJ) quality lightweights. He has one more "quality" win but he also got KTFO not that long ago"
One more this year. He has others. Plus he has a consistently good record at LW.
Aoki has 19 wins at LW; BJ has 9.
BJ has a total of four wins over guys whom most of would consider top quality in today's division: Gomi, Uno, Stevenson, and Sherk. Aoki has wins over JZ, Uno, Alvarez, and Hansen at least. Those wins of Aoki's are more recent -- two of Penn's "big wins" are five and 7 years old, while three of Aoki's were this year and the other two years ago.
Aoki completely dominated Uno on the ground, while BJ drew with Uno in their most recent fight. The more experienced, more dangerous version of Gomi has been completely tooled on the ground by Aurelio and Kitaoka, whereas it took BJ three rounds to finish him and the commentators thought Gomi won the second round. Most of us at this point would probably expect Aoki to submit Gomi very quickly, and I would venture a guess that 100% of us would pick him to submit Stevenson in under two minutes (BJ took two rounds), and probably 80% here would pick him to submit Sherk in the first round.
Many of those championing BJ are the same ones who consider JZ, Hansen, Alvarez to be much more dangerous than Sherk and Stevenson at least.
Given all that, what is it about BJ's accomplishments at lightweight that have so many -- even the Wise Pro Fighters -- saying that he is, without any question, both the best fighter in the world at 155 and the #1 fighter at that weight?
"Their opinions are no more valid than mine."
Valid? No. But they certainly carry more weight. Professional fighters who have competed at the highest levels of the sport can be considered experts, you cannot. Is it reasonable to give more credence to the opinion of an expert than to a discussion board douche like you or me? Of course.
"One more this year. He has others. Plus he has a consistently good record at LW."
How the hell does he have a consistently good record at LW when he was KOd only a few months ago by a guy he already beat?
And as i already mentioned. BJ is 9-1 at LW. His consistency has nothing to do with his ability to score wins at LW but more to do with him moving up in weight
"Those wins of Aoki's are more recent -- two of Penn's "big wins" are five and 7 years old, while three of Aoki's were this year and the other two years ago."
Then we are back to the original argument. Aoki has three dominant wins while BJ has two. BJ has no recent losses. Aoki got KTFO not that long ago. But because he has one more win it means he is much more consistent and therefore better
"Most of us at this point would probably expect Aoki to submit Gomi very quickly, and I would venture a guess that 100% of us would pick him to submit Stevenson in under two minutes (BJ took two rounds), and probably 80% here would pick him to submit Sherk in the first round."
So when goku says most pro fighters think BJ is the best. You dismiss it. But at the same time you are making an argument that because most people here feel Aoki would beat some of BJs opponents. It holds more value?
lol
"Professional fighters who have competed at the highest levels of the sport can be considered experts, you cannot."
It doesn't matter if I'm an "expert" or not. Do my reasons make sense? Do I cite facts? That's all that matters. I haven't heard any reasons whatsoever from any of these "experts", and if I did, I would judge those reasons on their merits, not because they're coming from a guy who punches people for a living.
If this were an argument about how to cut weight or train or something like that, you could certainly take a pro fighter's word as far superior to mine. But something like "who is the best (or #1) fighter"? Come on. They are just voicing their opinion based on watching fights, same as you and me.