Who are some of the boxers that you guys would say have fairly low stances? Stances that are best suited for MMA competition in the sense that they leave the fighter less susceptible to, or better prepared to defend against, takedowns?
ray mancini and troy dorsey stayed pretty low too.
But i disagree that just because a boxer is lower that he's more well suited to mma. Its just as east to take down a guy that's low as it is a guy who's higher up; if he doesn't know what he's doing
or kicks
I agree that just because a boxer of a fighter has a low stance that they are less susceptible to takedowns if they don't know what they are doing, but my point was that boxer/fighter who already has a fairly low stance will have an easier time, generally speaking, adjusting their game when they transition into MMA or any other environment that allows for takedowns, since they will obviously have to lower their stance somewhat in order to avoid being ultra-susceptible to takedowns, or at least develop the ability to do so quickly upon sensing that they are being set up for a takedown.
Furthermore, I also agree that a very low stance is not good either for MMA because it leaves you open to knees and low kicks, which is the reason why I said "fairly low stance", not extremely low. I'm talking about a stance that is lower than the "typical" boxer's, yet higher than the "typical" Folkstyle/Collegiate Wrestler.
So basically the stance that I am searching for, simply with regard to elevation, not foot and hand placement or other factors that are generally sport specific, is one that comes closest to an American Freestyle Wrestler's or, even more so, an American Greco-Roman wrestler, both of whose stances are generally more "upright" than their Folkstyle/Collegiate counterparts.
In Freestyle it is so because on an international level, more throws, upper body wrestling, and use of the legs to secure takedowns are used, resulting in more upright stance. In Greco-Roman Wrestling, since no leg shots are allowed, the stance is logically more upright, but if one were to study the stance of AMERICAN Greco-Roman Wrestler's, one will see a stance that is less upright than their international counterparts, because of their background in American Folkstyle. It is this level of elevation which I feel is the best "compromise" between the stances of wrestlers (generally low) and boxers (generally more upright when compared to wrestlers) for MMA competition.
Please bear in mind that I am not trying to say that one style or stance or better than the other, so please for God's sake don't accuse me of such. I've noiced that on the Underground forum whenever comparative questions are asked about two arts or when the weakness or strength of one is cited in a particular area, people almost automatically get offended and think that the post or question is a "style vs. style" or "which is the best style" question, when, more often than not, it clearly isn't.
Any more response/replies in light of the above clarification would still be appreciated.
Anyone else?
so are you asking which boxer has a good stance to avoid takedowns, or which have good stances for mma?
because they're two different things entirely. Almost all boxers are going to keep their weight on their front leg, which is a bad idea when leg kicks are involved
Also, i disagree with the premise that a more upright stance in more susceptible to takedowns. Alot of Judoka stay almost completely upright, and some of them have done quite well in MMA.
I understand that a lot of Judokas have upright stances, but I am sure that their stance, when they are in MMA, is a bit lower than that that they use in a pure Judo context and I doubt that, if they are up against a really good wrestler, that their rate of success at defending the takedown, however high, would be at the same level of a good wrestler.
so you want to debate Judo vs wrestling, or you want to debate boxing vs wrestling, or boxing vs mma?
Jason,
I'm not looking to debate any style vs. another style. All I'm trying to do is find people who use varying stances within their respective sports and with the degree of effectiveness that they are able to do so. My reason for this is to try to see what kind of a stance would be most suited to my particular fighting style (within an MMA context) given that in MMA a wide variety of tools and options are available to one's opponent that one may not face within each and every one of the "traditional" or "Pre-MMA" martial arts.
For example, when I wrestle/submission grapple, my stance is a bit "taller" than most people. When I box (and when I've done my limited amount of FC kickboxing), my stance is quite upright, yet at an attacking angle (think Tommy Hearns). But when I've gone at it with training partners in a quasi-MMA setting (no closed-fist strikes to the face, though knees and soccer kicks being legal, go figure) I haven't been able to find a way to modify my stance to successfully integrate my boxing with my wrestling. What results is that in one sparring session I essentially look a Baroni-type who is trying to blast people into outer space and gets taken down by inferior wrestlers despite an extensive and successful wrestling background, and in the other, by basically abandoning my boxing and fighting precisely like a wrestler under MMA rules (think Mark Coleman in UFC 10), I can easily score the takedown on almost anyone but then have practically no way to finish except for leglocks (mainly heelhooks and achilles locks) since GnP is off limits. I simply haven't been able to find a stance that would give me the optimum amount of mobility and fluidity that would allow me defend the takedown, secure my own takedowns, while being able to use my boxing to both set up takedowns or to finish it up on the feet, if I should so choose.
So I would like to study of the stances of those boxers/kickboxers who have lower than usual stances (and have used them effectively) and wrestlers who have more upright than usual stances (and have used them effectively) and find a midrange between the two (since currently in MMA there is no one's stance that seems to be what I am looking for....not saying they are not good or effective, just don't seem to be what I'm looking for. The closest would have to be Dan Henderson but he can get by with his stance because of his vast wrestling background, but even still he gets taken down a little too often for my taste), which would allow me to integrate my wrestling and boxing style for MMA.
So that is the reason for my post(s), not in order to do a "style vs. style" kind of thing.
pernell whitaker used to stay low at times. even when avoiding punches he would almost sit on the ground...