Butterfly guard for vale tudo

Reading Royler's new book, he mentions that it is difficult to get submissions from closed guard in no-gi and open guard is easy to pass because you don't have sleeve control. He seems to very much prefer butterfly guard for submission grappling.

Now, I have heard the same from numerous sources. There is a growing consensus that butterfly and half guard are the preferred bottom positions for submission grappling. Yet it would seem that both are vulnerable positions in a NHB context.

Would this mean that the link between NHB and sub. grappling really isn't so close? Because NHB guard work would involve more knee-in-bicep and high (leg on shoulder) guard, which isn't really high percentage in submission grappling?

Two fighters that come to mind as having used the butterfly guard successfully in NHB are Ronald Juhn and Carlos Newton.

A butterfly guard with a full bearhug is fairly safe in NHB - very difficult to really tee off on someone in this position without compromising your own balance.

Stephan Kesting

I have seen butterfly guard used quite effectively in some low-mid level mma events. I think the main bad thing about it is that it's hard to stop the top guy from standing up and backing out if he wants to. So to use it, you have to be fighting someone who is willing to attempt passing from a kneeling position.

On another note, in Royler's fight with Sakuraba, he kept sitting down in a butterfly guard position and beckoning Sak to kneel in his butterfly guard, so he was willing to use it in a mma fight.

The guy on top shouldn't be able to standup if you have double underhooks. I've seen Jeremy Horn use the butterfly in NHB before and it seems to work well for him

Good question.

I recently found out myself that open guard basically sucks for Sub grappling purely cause your legs will flash 'leg lock me' at anyone paying attention.

Butterfly seems the way to go.

I remember Sperrys vids saying anything other than closed guard for vale tudo was no good.
That still seems to be the general case - although there always be exceptions.

So is open guard (i.e. extended use of open guard) really only any use in gi fighting?

Sperry's vids actually say the opposite. He says don't use closed guard except to hold the opponent tight. Pretty much all the technique he demonstrates in his VT1 guard tape is open guard.

Well its a long time since I saw that vid.
The only advice I took from it was, as you mentioned.

Either hold the guy as close to you as possible (closed guard) or dont be in guard (try to stand up/take top position).

I may be wrong (wouldnt be the first time), but it seemed good advice which still rings true.
As a generalisation.

mino uses open/butterfly guard, you can grip the wrist or underhooks without the gi

sim wrote: "The guy on top shouldn't be able to standup if you have double underhooks. "

Why shouldn't he be able to stand up, just because of the underhooks? Not sure if I agree. Perhaps you can explain it better?

Opash wrote: "Either hold the guy as close to you as possible (closed guard) or dont be in guard (try to stand up/take top position)."

No, Sperry said that he doesn't believe in closed guard for Vale Tudo, he believes in open guard. He prefers the top positions, but if he has the guard, he has a lot of kicks, sweeps and leglocks from the open guard. Realize, though, that this is just his opinion.

Many people have begun to disagree with this as of lately and think that the closed guard IS a good way of neutralizing strikes and leg locks. It also depends on who's using the guard. Mino is a good guard player, for example (and ironically trains with Mario) and he can really submit from the guard. But it seems that there are more people that can pound from the top of the guard than there are people that can submit from the bottom of the guard.

It also has lots to do with the rules. For one, wearing gloves makes things a lot easier for the striker. But let's not go there, ok? :)

"...if do right, no can defend."