Wow, guys. You're awesome! Thanks all!
Maybe one more question:
If I have double unders and fall back, is it enough to just lift one leg to do the elevator sweep to the side? You see, I've been told that to sweep to the side, you have to be on your side.
The double unders (aka bearhug) is different from the basic sweep. In the double unders falling backwards sweep you fall straight back (onto your back, not your side) and use both legs (because you are lifting all his weight off of the ground). Once you have him up in the air then you can switch to a single leg supporting his weight and go for an elevator sweep, ankle lock, etc.
You are correct about having to fall onto your side for the basic sweep. Also there you only use one leg, and that is for several reasons. Firstly if you have broken his balance a bit you are only lifting part of his weight, and then you are essentially toppling him over, not lifting him all the way into the air. Secondly you need the other leg free to drive into the ground to power the whole thing - this is often ignored by people who begin training the butterfly sweep (myself included initially).
Stephan Kesting
www.grapplearts.com
Stephan Kesting wrote:
"Once you have him up in the air then you can switch to a single leg supporting his weight and go for an elevator sweep".
Is dropping one of your legs down to the ground all it takes to sweep your opponent to the side with this type of elevator sweep, or do you have to do something else, like f.ex. tilt your upper body to the side, possibly grabbing behind your own neck to stop the arm post, pushing his leg away to stop the leg post, etc.
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good thread! should be considered for archives. . .
ttt for an answer to my last question and I will be satisfied. Actually, very much so. Thanks all (sigh) again!
Definitely archive-worthy. Thanks especially to Stephan.
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ttt for an answer to my last question.
Re: "Is dropping one of your legs down to the ground all it takes to sweep your opponent to the side with this type of elevator sweep..."
I'm on the road until tommorow night and only have intermittent access to an ancient computer and a dial-up connection. I actually typed out a long answer to this, but it never made it across the ether onto this thread. Damm.
No, just dropping one leg isn't going to do it. What you want to do is to circle the leg you've dropped down and around so it chops down on top of his leg on that same side. This creates an up and down shearing action that is pretty surprising. Sometimes this is all that it takes to sweep him over.
Trapping an arm on one side is good, but I've found it a little hard to do in reality (maybe it's just me). For me what has worked best is to try the up/down shearing with the legs and catch him by surprise.
If your opponent is expecting this move (ie the elevator, with or without the arm trapping) it is relatively easy for him to counter it. That is why you need at least two or three options from this rocked up position if you're going to try it at all.
One surprising thing that has worked very well for me is to rock him up as if you are going to take him all the way over (or switch to an elevator sweep) and then drop him back down in front of you KICKING YOUR LEGS STRAIGHT AS YOU DO SO, PUSHING HIM BACKWARDS A BIT. This generates some backwards momentum that you can then use to pull yourself forward,onto your knees (or feet). From here you can either stand up with the bearhug or stay low and sag him backwards. Your bearhug stays locked the whole time.
Stephan Kesting
www.grapplearts.com
Thanks a lot, Stephan. I really appreciate your time. Have fun on the road!
Why is it not a good idea for the hips to be in close?
I think that the 2 biggest reasons are that there are so many butterfly guard passes that begin by jamming your legs to your butt and flattening you out (and getting superior head position, which is head in chest) AND that you have much less mobility, in particular to do things like taking your hook out when you want to go to your opponent's back.
In case there is someone out there reading this and wondering about some "what if" scenarios about the butterfly guard, allow me to add a little footnote about a very common beginner's question about the butterfly guard.
The question is "what if your opponent simply stands up in your butterfly guard?".
Well, I don't pretend to know all the answers, but I have an answer from several sources that talk about that standing up in the butterfly guard can actually be very dangerous, much more dangerous than beginners realize at first.
First of all, you will usually be in a PRIME position for a heelhook or an ankle lock, just by wrapping around one of his legs with your arm from the outside and your leg from the inside. Secondly, if you have double underhooks, you can just stand up with him with the very powerful grip the double underhooks are and do a takedown from there, like f.ex. a simple trip backwards or a "suplex" throw. Thirdly, if he sprawls back so you can't reach his legs, you can put him in your closed guard. I'm sure there are many more options.
The reason you don't want to put your hips in close is so you can take one of your legs and put it on the outside to go to his back, or on his hip to do various things. If you're jammed up tight you can't take your leg out.
Cool, thanks.
Can you do armlocks from here, e.g. "pressing" armlock and "kimura"? (I would think for the latter that you must take one hook out and put it to the outside of the leg, same side you grab the arm on).
Any thoughts?
Yeah, I'm always ready to give my worthless thoughts and perhaps someone will back me up.
To do the regular armbar (juji-gatame in judo) from the butterfly guard you should probably begin with an armdrag or use the chance if he posts both of his arms to the side you're sweeping, and begin to take his back.
If he wants to straighten his body back and pull his arm back to the other side, that's the perfect opportunity to armbar him. On the side where he has no arms posted, you must have already taken that side hook out.
Let's say you're going to armbar his right arm. Immobilize that arm with your right arm going either over or under his right arm (depends on which side of his right arm your right arm was when you armdragged him) and make sure he doesn't pull his arm out (it's not totally bad if he does, actually, because then he'll fall right into the triangle if you can keep his other arm, his left, in your guard). Now that your left leg is no longer hooking inside his right leg, you can do at least two things with your right leg.
1. Pull your right leg out and get your legs in the standard "cross grip" position, i.e. your left foot on his right hip, your right leg high up under his armpit and your right calf pressing his shoulders down, knees squeezing him. Grab behind his left shoulder with your left hand, going under his neck. Spin to your right and throw your left leg over his head for the armbar.
2. Leave the right leg in the butterfly position. You can only do this, I think, if your right tricep is OVER his right arm, your right hand holds his right tricep from the inside, right thumb is pointing up and his right hand is under your right armpit. Now, without posting anywhere with your left leg, grab behind his left shoulder with your left hand (as in number 1) and use that grip to spin and move your left leg over his face. Squeeze your knees together and finish. Note that your right leg is still in the butterfly position and that's why it's very important that you are immobilizing his right hand under your armpit.
One cool (and good, I think) way to get the Kimura from there is to start to Kimura his right arm, take your left foot out of the butterfly position and sweep him over you by sweeping his right leg WITH YOUR RIGHT LEG (kind of like a "cross elevator sweep" if you will). You will somersault backwards over your head and come up on top of him, side mounting him. Go immediately to the north/south hold down and finish the Kimura from there.
Just my 1 cent.