I have torn cartilage in one of my partner's ankles and he didn't tap cause he said it was no where near painful at the time of the tear. After that, I stopped using them in sparring, although we still drill them.
this thread amazes me.
Injury is part of sports. Everyone has about every
body part hurt, over time. So if for example your
shoulder is hurt, and extra succeptible to injury, if
someone key locks you, you tap quick. Same thing
with heel hooks, tap quick, all the time.
In the application of them, it is enough to lock it on,
rather than turn it over.
You've got to be ready to tap quick mainly.
There's nothing worse than watching newbies or even friends trying leg-locks such as heel-hooks, I cringe. Especailly when they say "It's ok, I saw it on WWE".
Where I train we make a distinction between "accidents" and 'carelessness". Particularly with newbies. Pain is part of training. But being injured by a training partner because of carelessness should not be. In the case of practiciing joint locks, you have to exercise care. It is that simple.
every technique is safe if you are controlled. i use heelhooks, toeholds and kneebars all the time in training and have never injured anyone. ironically last week i was rolling in class, tapped a guy with a heelhook quickly. i think it got him upset, and the next time around he went full steam and cranked my ankle with a heelhook. it popped before i even had a chance to tap. generally i think if you don't roll angry, no one will get hurt.
I think Kai nailed it. Having someone hook your heel, with the leg over (or any solid control position) is akin to having your elbow extended to 180 degrees. You are already IN the submission, and it is nearing completion. This is TOO LATE to start thinking about escapes, or holding on to see how much you can take.
Also, people still try to spin out, like that really gets you out of danger. Often that puts the pressure on faster, even when spinning in the "correct" direction.
~TT
I've found that a lot of beginners do NOT know whent to tap from them. All of the times I've heard that awful "POP" sound (if you hear two...look out) it's been when one guy is caught and just keeps squirming around.
I'm all about training with and for them, but even with people who are experienced...know when to concede and don't ever crank 'em.
I like to apply it and give the guy a bit of time to try to roll out, sit up, counter, etc. and if he does, good for him. If not...I'm not going to crank it, but I'll look around and make sure everyone realizes I could've :)
This belt talk is all a bit of a joke. (never done BJJ you see)
But I'm careful when putting them on usually 1/2 speed. But I must admit I did go for one on a pro-fighter when I knew he had hurt it previously and I got the tap. Sweet. He then proceded to sub me every which way.
Here's an idea:
How about adopting a kind of a "waza-ari" system for heelhooks in sparring?
What I mean by this is that when one guy manages to get the leg position sunk for a heel hook AND manages to cup the heel in a slapping motion (i.e. letting go IMMEDIATELY and NOT TWISTING AT ALL because sometimes the defender twists the wrong way) - then the attacker scores a "waza-ari" (taken from judo) or a half point. Then the attacker releases the heel hook and gets to either
a) continue from that position and work for something else, or
b) start in the mount as a reward for getting the heel hook, or
c) both guys start all over again, either from the knees or standing.
If someone gets two "waza-ari"'s, i.e. two half points, then it adds up to a full point, which means "victory", which is the same as tapping.
We could also NOT let the points add up, as is done in judo with "kokas" and "yukos". Then when the match is over and both guys have submitted each other equally as often, the guy with the most points wins.
Now, I'm not at all suggesting that we make this an official rule of the sport or whatever. I'm just trying to come up with ideas to make training with heel hooks a possibility with the injury danger minimized as much as possible. Therefore, the attacker has to be rewarded in some way for getting in the heel hook position. If guys don't like the idea of "getting the heel hook position" = "I tapped you out", then you could try this "waza-ari" idea of mine and just say that you got "points" for getting the position.
Just a thought.
Thank you all for you great input.
Jon, that's a weird way to looking at things.
Now, should we do the same for chokes and armbars?
The injuries come simply from unfamiliarity and people thinking that their escapes are much better than they really are.
I've been training for a few months now and personally I would not go for such moves while sparring. seems too much of an all-or-nothing move where someone could get hurt. I'm all for learning to defend them but I prefer arm-bars and chokes. And IMHO armbars (and chokes) much cooler techniques
ttt just to see what happens.