Carlos or Helio

Okay, this is gonna create a Hurricane Katrina sized shitstorm, but I need to hear what everyone thinks on here.

Who created BJJ, Helio or Carlos.

Honestly, I think it was all of the brothers. Carlos started it, and they all kept adding innovations. Think about it, the ONLY Gracie brothers we hear about are Helio and Carlos, never a damn thing about the others. The few stories we do hear are how they were also great fighters/teachers and thats it. You KNOW they had insight into the art and helped to innovate it as well.

Honestly I don't think either "created" it. Bjj comes from Kosen judo so when Carlos was taught the art a lot of the fundamental framework of the art was already established. I think Carlos and Helio and probably their brothers all tweaked the art to suit their personalities and physical attributes and then their children and nephews also added things to the mix. In terms of inventing a style from scratch, which is the only time I would use the word "create", I don't think that ever happens. I think wrestling styles are a communal thing much like folk stories- each story teller adds their special flavor to the telling of the stories but the stories belong to no one in particular.

 I wouldn't even agree that Kano "created" judo.  I think he organized pre-existent ju-jitsu techniques under a common principle of maximum efficiency and made use of randori as a training method to filter out unpractical techniques.  Even so there were other students contributing to the art and tweaking it so it was in a constant state of flux.  A particular move may be attributed to a single person but not the whole art.

good post ridgeback



Ridgeback... Well said...

I completely agree with you, Ridgeback.

At the same time, getting back to the point. Who was the first Gracie to really start GJJ?

"Honestly I don't think either "created" it.
Bjj comes from Kosen judo so when Carlos was taught the art a lot of the fundamental framework of the art was already established."

kosen was a dojo that practiced judo. it was not a style of judo. the kosen dojo made no attempt to spread their approach. the gracies never learned the kosen school rules. if so, why would the gracies have preserved it and the rest of japan abandon it?

i also have never read that maeda studied at the kosen school. so how would have maeda passed on kosen rules of judo to the gracies?

as for the creater of GJJ it is hard to say. the level of imput that carlos had seems really small. i believe helio was the driving force between the gracie style of jiu-jitsu.

the level of imput that carlos had seems really small


how bout he taught it to all his brothers as he was the only one to sudy under meada

how bout he worked tirelessly to teach it to helio -

how bout he was the one who fuaght tons of mathces to get the name and system recognised by issueing the gracie challenge - it was only wa later that helio faught matches as family champ

how bout hte countless students who are bb's under carlos sr. and their students

I also have the Kosen Judo tapes and im always wondering what exactly did Helio supposedly come up with???

I would suggest that it was started with Carlos. Even Helio says he learned simply by watching and then somehow created his own style, that was superceded by Carlson. Carlson has had a major influence on this sport, Helio hardly any (apart from humaita).

Rickson hasnt produced no champions

Rorion hasnt produced no champions (apart from his own sons)

Royce hasnt produced any champions

which is why I will always say that the true champion of the Gracie family will always be Royler (along with Renzo) who himself fought the people Rickson didnt, competed at the highest level, and was the smallest of the brothers. Which makes sense why He (royler) said Rolls had the most influence on him.

I think it goes Carlos - Carlson - Rolls - Royler..Carlos Jr...etc..etc..

I think BJJ was the culmination of these guys along with the efforts of some talented dedicated students who added to this art along with them. IMO

"how bout he taught it to all his brothers as he was the only one to sudy under meada

how bout he worked tirelessly to teach it to helio"

helio said he learnd by watching, not from carlos. also, in the royler and renzo book, it states that other gracie brother learned from maeda, not just carlos. maeda also taught other brasilians (fadda).

please list some of the challenge matches carlos fought. it seems like the golden age of the challenges started with helio vs. the japanese. too many people confuse sjj as the essence of jj.

look at the great fighter helio made directly...himself. relson (feared street fighter), rolls (noted as the father of jj crosstraining) rickson (considered the best sjj man ever), royler (p4p one of the greatest sjj fighters), rorion (fought challenge matches in the u.s. and also introduced the art to the u.s.)

this is not even branching off to all those people they have trained. to say they have not created great jj men is retarded.

Just to remember regarding Kosen. Kosen was/is just a subset or rules where there is no real limit to time on the ground. It's much like the differences between Folkstyle and Freestyle wrestling. Due to the competition rules, you see different techniques.

Also, many of those who really taught/coached/used Kosen Judo were from the Pre WWII era.

In an interview in Grappling magazine Carlos Jr who is Carlos son stated the offensive techniques of jiu jitsu were not altered much but it was his uncle Helio who created and perfected the defensive movements and escapes.

They also say "Helio changed the leverage points".
That has to be one of the dumbest fucking statements I've ever heard. What exactly does that mean anyway?
What were the "leverage points" before he "changed" them at what are they now? I defy anyone who believes that shit to explain it and cite specific examples.

Ask Mike Jones.

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back then yall didnt know me, now im hot yall all up on me.

helio said he learnd by watching, not from carlos.

lol @ anyone who believes that horseshit -

I've watch 1000's of hours of instructionals - given me my black belt

actually what he said was he watched enough to give one dude a private - but he still had a long way to go and to learn -

this comes from carlos jr. to me - carlos sr. taught helio and worked with him more then any other brother

also LOL@ the whole helio was weak and needed to change shit -

carlos jr does say helio did come up with new shit, but carlos sr was only 140 lbs - how much strentgh did he have?

Thanks Sreiter.

every picture tells the story,look at the pics Helio's ranch,Helios academy .When all the gracies came to the USA ,Rorians house.I have heard the same story for ten years.Now it starts to change.???