Catch Wrestling better than Jiu Jitsu, for MMA?

Pins?  I was not talking about pins.   Everyone always focuses on pins.  Pins are irrelevant.

Pins are an anachronism from a set of rules from days gone by.

I have been taught CACC as a modern fighting/grappling art.   No pins.  And in CACC the bottom position is called a body scissors.    

I was going by the rule set that modern CACC tournaments use, such as King of Catch, and the Wiggan tournament held this year and last. Which CACC tournaments are not using pins? Phone Post 3.0

Aside from Barnett and Saku where are all these cacc monsters? Shouldn't they be tearing up MMA and grappling tournaments as we speak?

  • The proof is in the pudding: the best submission (ground) grappling (on its own) for both MMA and submission grappling is BJJ

    - However, I would add the modern "catch wrestlers" for MMA are in fact the American collegiate wrestlers turned MMAers and adding BJJ to their wrestling. Its quite common to see a wrestler without the extensive BJJ training at least neutralize or best elite BJJers on the ground. Of course, sometimes the judges it wrong and assume top guy is winning but we see wrestlers defend subs and counter with GNP and maintain strong positions or move to better positions (though BJJ guy usually gets guard back too)

    - One of the reasons there are not many Catch guys in MMA and subgrappling is that its died out a lot, there arent a lot of Catch schools. Another thing to keep in mind that early JMMA was based on Catch for their grappling (early Pancrase, Shooto). So the Lion's Den had a more Catch rooted grappling for example. Rumina Sato and Hayato Sakurai in Shooto, who were very strong in subs in MMA in the early days came from that type of background (though believe Sakurai also did judo earlier as well). Imanari, who is still one of the best leg lock guys in MMA comes from this type of background.

    In general terms, BJJ usually beats JMMA catch in terms of positioning. Sato and Imanari are examples of explosive/dynamic sub guys but often beaten postionally by BJJ guys if they didnt get the initial sub (and usu off scrambles). Ironically, ive always said that Mir is a HW Rumina Sato, he catches guys with subs but isnt that great positionally, and gets grinded out with GNP.

    - You still have to take individual factors in: Mir has weak wrestling, susceptible to being grinded, Nog has limited wrestling, much stronger as a survivor (if you compared to facing strong top position guys). Also, just because Lesnar beat Mir, doesnt mean he woulda beat Nog and/or Werdum on the ground - he coulda but not as easily as he did Mir. Lesnar also has a strong wreslting background is uniquely strong. Sakuraba had a strong wrestling background. Barnett does not but is one of the best MMA submission guys and he is very gritty.

    - Overall, either way, I would say that wrestling abiity, that is the td ability, ability to get back up, control, is important for any of grappling base you come from in MMA. In subgrappling, its far less important. That stuff comes at the highest levels from wrestling but in terms of submissions and pure positioning on the ground, BJJ has the highest levels for that

    - Dont use Francis. Sounds like the gimp who called Liddell "Charles."

Chadderz - I was going by the rule set that modern CACC tournaments use, such as King of Catch, and the Wiggan tournament held this year and last. Which CACC tournaments are not using pins? Phone Post 3.0


I think that I made it clear that what I was taught has nothing to do with "rules".



If you want to fight in a tournament that has rules, that is fine by me.   I was not talking about tournaments.



 

Some of the best examples of wrestlers turned elite MMA subgrapplers are:

Saku
Hughes
Jones
Weidman

GSP, you could throw in there as well in there too in terms of functionality as a strong wrestler with BJJ. Weidman is better at pure grappling than Jones but in MMA, Jones crushes guys on the ground and has great subs too from top position or suited to his Weidman is more fluid in pure BJJ, you wont see Jones attack for leg locks as fluidly as Weidman went from top positonal passing attempts, GNP to leg lock transistions but no one can control Jones from guard anyhow. He schooled Bader without GNP iirc into that sub. Could any top BJJ LHW have done that to Bader?

Saku although ok in the guard was reputed to have hated the position. Hughes developed a great example of GNP, passing, submission. Saku never relied too much on GNP but dynamic, scramble type submission catching which is more akin to the JMMA rooted in Catch (as opposed to methodical, break you down like Hughes/Jones).

The primary difference between Brock/Mir 1 and Brock/Mir 2 is that Brock brought in BJJ champ Comprido to train him on the ground before Brock/Mir 2.

1999 called and wants it's thread back ;)

gotmysitchpackedbyweidman - 



LOL VTFU!

e. kaye -
Chadderz - I was going by the rule set that modern CACC tournaments use, such as King of Catch, and the Wiggan tournament held this year and last. Which CACC tournaments are not using pins? Phone Post 3.0


I think that I made it clear that what I was taught has nothing to do with "rules".



If you want to fight in a tournament that has rules, that is fine by me.   I was not talking about tournaments.



 

Well CACC has a rule set. That is what DEFINES it as it's own style. The rules dictate the techniques, the techniques are what create the style. Phone Post 3.0

That used to be the case.    There is no "rule set".  Only tournament rules that you chose freely to be subject to.

If you want to learn CACC for sporting puposes, that is fine with me.   Pin away.

If you want to learn it for combat puposes, then the pin is useless.

I was never taught a single pin.   There is no reason for them in a fight.  As there would be no reason for them in MMA.

 

And PS, the rules do not define the style.

The style mechanically is very different from BJJ for a lot of other reasons.

The pin only came about because it was a safe way to end a fight.   Instead of having opponents cripple each other.

The pin and the rules came second.

cheesesteak - 1999 called and wants it's thread back ;)

A very good point. Next up: BJJ vs Judo.

sside maurice - The primary difference between Brock/Mir 1 and Brock/Mir 2 is that Brock brought in BJJ champ Comprido to train him on the ground before Brock/Mir 2.

An even better point. So you had a freakishly strong/big wrestler traneing with both Catch guys (Paulson) and a BJJ world champ.

Seems like you're making sense kaye. Talking about the use of the pin in Catch, is like saying BJJ doesn't work in MMA because of the gi.

Wasa-B - 
cheesesteak - 1999 called and wants it's thread back ;)

A very good point. Next up: BJJ vs Judo.

It's really not a good point imho... The conversation is far more valid today than it was in 1999.

Wrestling and Grappling, in their various forms, are merging for the purposes of MMA. Aren't they? In 1999, people were still trying to fight with exhibition style kung fu. In 99, there were wrestlers with no grappling skills, and grapplers with no wrestling. Where are those people in the sport today?

For all intents and purposes Wasa, how much difference is there between a BJJ fighter with solid wrestling, and someone who learned almost all of the same principles through something like Catch?

Glad this got bumped though, you had some great comments and I missed them (was silenced by the vote downs, for some reason).

It doesn't matter what you call your grappling, what matters is that you are good at it.

Chadderz - The rule set for CACC is much more relevant for MMA. In CACC you only win via sub or pin. So if you're on your back you fight like a demon to stand again. No laying in your back at all. It also makes grappling more exciting. The downside is that the guard isn't used in CACC so less sweeps/subs/guard passing skills.

I trane CSW and BJJ (: Phone Post 3.0

Pins are not common practice these days. We always discus when there is an opportunity to pin.

We do use guard work, obviously not as much as bjjers. But there are some crazy subs and cranks starting from guard. The sweep and passing game is extensive. You don't see many catch wrestlers on their back because we train not to get into that position in the first place and if we end up there we get out of there quickly. It does have it's roots from pin prevention.

I have trained in judo, bjj and catch. Catch is much more "dirty" per say. I continued with catch for many reasons. I have respect for all grappling styles.

e. kaye - 


Pins?  I was not talking about pins.   Everyone always focuses on pins.  Pins are irrelevant.



Pins are an anachronism from a set of rules from days gone by.



I have been taught CACC as a modern fighting/grappling art.   No pins.  And in CACC the bottom position is called a body scissors.    


What??If you're not using pins, then you're not doing cacc my friend.

Saying that pins are irrelevent is about the same thing that saying the guard is irrevelent in bjj...

Pins mean CONTROL, how the hell can you say they are irrelevant?? Seriously?

CACC is WRESTLING + subs, never ever forget that.

Who's you're cacc coach??