Closed guard love/hate

Underground BJJ Ground
1

Yesterday an interesting thought crossed my mind regarding the closed guard. I was rolling against a guy that's not as good as me but still a decent grappler. For the last few months I've tried to use the closed guard as little as possible to work on my butterfly guard, half guard, half butterfly guard, x guard, de la riva guard and other OPEN guards.

The reason is because I've found it so hard to attack much bigger guys that also know how to grapple from my closed guard, especially if they sit back in posture. I'm talking about no-gi BJJ here. I thought that the way to beat such people would be to sweep them and get on top and in order to do so, I had the feeling that the best way to do so was to use my legs to mess with their LEGS and not their upper body, hence the guards I mentioned above. In other words, I began to think that the closed guard was NOT the best guard variation to sweep from. The point of this post is to wonder if I was wrong.

Well, I was having a hard time doing anything against this guy, even though I wasn't really in much danger and I was relaxed the whole time (I usually am). But after a few minutes of this, I put him in my closed guard and BAM - right away I climbed my legs up his back and armbarred him in seconds! I did a similar thing to two other guys, played with the open guard and then tried the closed guard for a few seconds and triangled the first guy and flower swept the other (sweeping apparently works, too ;) ).

So... after having tried both strategies,

A) used my legs to control his upper body (the "climbing closed guard", i.e. armbars, triangles, omoplatas, hip bump, kimuras, flower sweep and even the shins-in-biceps open guard

and...

B) used my legs to control his LOWER body (half guard, butterfly guard, etc.)

I'm thinking that strategy B) isn't necessarily perfect either. Well duh, I do know that having a variety of guards and attacks is what matters and that no one thing will work all the time against everyone. I also know that I have more flight time with the closed guard, but I've still worked a lot on my open guard, i.e. half guard and butterfly guard.

Still, here's my problem with strategy B):

YOU ONLY HAVE YOUR ARMS TO DEAL WITH YOUR OPPONENT'S ARMS!

And because of that, if your opponent is much stronger than you, he will probably have an easier time crushing you than from the closed guard.

In addition to this, in the open guard, YOUR OPPONENT IS ALWAYS AAAALMOST PAST YOUR GUARD. He's further away from having passed your guard in the closed guard.

And therefore I have devised a devious combination attack or two in my mind to make my closed guard work yet again :) Tell me if you think it might work. My opponent sits back in posture (no-gi, remember) and puts both hands on my hips. I simply GO FOR THE ARMBAR, knowing that he's too far back for the armbar to have much chance, but it's just a setup - for the hip bump on that side. Btw. the armbar variation is the standard one of cross grabbing his arm, putting my foot on the hip and pivoting. I get my leg on his shoulder (probably my heel moreso than my calf, because he's so upright) and THEN - I swing my upper body up and hip bump him on the same side as his arm that I'm attacking. My head will go from one side of his to the other. If the hip bump fails, I'll try to flow into something else.

COMMENTS TO THE ABOVE PARAGRAPH WOULD BE MOST APPRECIATED!

In addition to this, I'll work on keeping angles with my hips out to prevent neck injuries and also work on guard recovery moves that start from failed armbars and triangles (Baret Yoshida teaches some of this on his tapes).

Basically, I'm thinking about for the closed guard, to work on a) sweeps (in all directions) in combination with subs such as the armbar and b) guard recovery from failed attacks.

Sorry about the long post, but I'd appreciate if anyone had the time to comment on this.

Cheers!

jonpall.

2

Dude you gotta top thinking in terms of right or wrong. There aren´t any right or wrong games - just the one you play at the moment that is best for you.

EDITED to say what I meant:

Right or wrong questions are like yes no ones. What i meant is you have to think about situations and percentages. Of course everything isn´t equal, but it depends on so many things.

3

I don't believe in that - well not 100%.

For example, in general, it's way better to be in a top position if strikes are involved. Saying that everything is equal and has value is saying that with enough practise, Aikido could actually really work in a fight against a good opponent.

It's the politically correct thing to say, and the easy way out. I know what you mean, and I agree to an extent, like I put as a disclaimer in my post above, but I'm more looking for tips and comments past the easy answer that "everything works".

Sorry Indrek, don't mean to be rude or anything ;) lol. Cheers, pal.

4

I enjoy using xguard, half guard, etc much more then closed guard. But the times i have finished higher ranks oppenants has been when I mixed in the closed guard during my game. i.e - I pull half guard. I sweep,
oppenant turns over before I pass, he takes me down from the knees , I pull into full guard (instinctivly) go for straight arm bar. Oppenant taps.

5

Just so that no one misunderstands me, I'm not talking about using ONLY the closed guard, just not discarding it completely against big guys (or anyone). Contradicting an earlier thread of mine where I said I was going to stop using the closed guard, lol. I told you I'd change my mind :) But I had to try it out myself and see if it would work or not.

ttt for more input.

6

dont give up on closed guard. I still thinks its best for vale tudo and a street fight

7

I don't really do much closed guard. You can draw an analogy where closed guard is like tic tac toe, and open guard is like chess.

From the bottom of closed guard, there's basically like 10 high percentage moves you can do, and from the top there are about 10 moves that they can do to break the legs open. So the state space for the decision graph is relatively small.

So like in tic tac toe, once someone has played a few times, it's very hard to beat them just because you only have to learn a relatively small number of patterns to at least get a draw. Like in tic tac toe, it's common to end up in a repeated stalemate. The only way to win is not to play.

Obviously this is an exaggeration. Closed guard is much more complicated than tic tac toe, and there are more than 10 moves. But the point is that it's much less complicated than open guard.

8

jeffisjeff: I haven't tried this yet, but I'm going to experiment with it. I'm also going to experiment with really pummeling for double underhooks from the butterfly guard before I start sweeping (probably with an over/under grip) and using the x-guard, mainly because I could be better at controlling the distance from the butterfly guard. I'm just constantly evaluating my game (doing various alive drills, f.ex. start sparring from all kinds of positions) and so far it's going well.

And Andrew, it's easier to do open guard (especially the feet on hips type) with the gi, you know :)

9

andrew, how long have you been training. I always like your posts their very insightful and shows diligent training.

10

Andrew, with all due respect, I think this is the first time I've disagreed with you.

The closed guard is just as sophisticated as the open guard, it is just that no one devotes as much time to developing it because the open guard is so much more "interesting". I am TOTALLY guilty of this as well.

But sit in the closed guard of someone really good at it. Someone like Rodrigo Medeiros (Carlson) or Ryron and Rener, and you will see how chess-like it really is.

The closed guard is totally underrated and I think it is good that you are coming to that conclusion, jonpall.

11

So andre, can you give me any tips on the closed guard? You probably already know a bit about where I currently stand, skill wise, from my posts here (low to middle blue belt). I was especially wondering about how to attack a guy that sits back in posture. It seems like he's too far away for me to attack him with an armbar and I'm always trying to break his posture down or switching to the butterfly guard, but perhaps a good alternative would be to just attack with the normal armbar, knowing that it will probably not work and then flow to something else - probably the hip bump because he's sitting back, but perhaps something else (like the triangle, f.ex.). What do you think? I know that switching to the butterfly guard can work - but what would a closed guard expert do, especially in no gi against a bigger guy?

And perhaps I could do well checking out Rodrigo Medeiros' instructions, hmm?

12

Andrew, when you visited Bolo's class, did you get a chance to see him loving himself some closed guard?

13

jonpall, I am having a hard time picturing the armbar to hip bump working. Try it out a few times and let me know how it works for you. I'm not saying it wont, just saying that I never tried it.

With no gi, I think you should sit up and double underhook him and bring him back down to the mat with you. Once you get him down, keep his upper body over you and use your underhooks to keep his arms from posting. Escape your hips to the side and try to get to him back or to a position where you can use a hook to sweep. If he is able to get one or both of his arms free, you should do your best to keep his posture broken by using your knees and head control. Try to climb your legs and attack his arm or triangle.

I realize this is all vague, but I think you can start playing with this and see what works from you. There is almost nothing you can do (aside from the hip bump sweep) to an opponent who has full posture in your closed guard, especially without the gi, so you really need to focus on constantly breaking his posture and keeping him off balance and over you.

14

By the way, I am definitely no expert to consult on the closed guard. I can sweep pretty well from there, but I too rely a lot on my open guard.

15

I can't claim this is a complete breakdown of all the possible grips, attack and combos from closed guard, but it's what I use, and I thought it might be interesting to share.

I'm sure we've all heard how open guard is more advanced and is at high levels uses it and blah blah blah. Carlos Gracie Jr. spoke about closed guard at his last seminar at Gracie Barra Tampa when he showed close guard attacks. He loves open guard, of course, but his message was "Why not tire them out and beat them from closed guard if you can?"

I love open guard too since it's fun and loose and all that funk, but since closed guard was my focus when I first started training, I've found it is still my more aggressive guard, with both submissions and sweeps. It's what I go to when I've got someone I really need to break down.

One of the first things I did when I'm trying to figure out closed guard was break down the grips. Here's what I operate off:

Control Points (with your arms):

  • Neck

  • Overhooks

  • Underhooks

  • Elbows

  • Biceps

  • Triceps

  • Wrists

  • Underhook the legs
That's just no-gi. With the gi, you can pretty much grip anywhere, as well as get into special gips like belt grips, looping overhooks to holding their collar, or wrapping lapels over and around arms and shoulders.

As for the legs:

Leg Positons

  • Low guard

  • High guard (climbing guard)

  • Crooked guard

  • Grapevines (I've used this maybe twice when I felt like being a jackass.)
Gi or no-gi, I can also get into the rubber guard control points, like Mission Control, New York, London and Meathook. With the gi, I'll do London with one arm by grabbing the back of their collar.

After I worked out the grips, I listed out the main sweeps and submissions so I know what options I have:

Sweeps and Submissions

  • Scissors sweep

  • Pendulum (flower) sweep

  • Hip bump sweep

  • Kimura

  • Guillotine

  • Collar choke

  • Armbar

  • Triangle

  • Omoplata (and its sweeps)

  • Gogoplata

  • Reverse armbar

  • Wristlocks

("Wristlocks WTF?" I actually use wristlocks to setup armdrags to take the back quite a lot. It's a hilarious counter to them posting on you. With one hand, hold their hand against your stomach or hips, and with the other hand pull their elbow into your stomach as you sit up. Armdrag when they spaz trying to free their hand.)

While not a sweep or submission, taking the back is also a serious weapon.

And these are just from knees. If they stand, I've got more stuff like the kick sweep, handstand sweep, star sweep and kneebar.

Switching to different open or half guards is also an option. But that's not the issue here.

Once I've got the sweeps and submissions worked out, I started looking for combinations. This is basic strategy building.

Basic Combo: Collar Chokes and Armbars. You go for a collar choke, he defends but gives up the armbar. You go for an armbar, but he defends so you get the choke. Simple but workable.

Sit-ups: Kimura, guillotine, hip heist. In no-gi, you can add the neck crank turnover. These moves are all based off sitting up and trapping one side of his body, and any one of them sets up others. For example, if he defends the kimura but leaves his head out, go to the guillotine. He defends the guillotine, go for the hip bump. Or neck crank turnover when he tucks his chin. Hip bump, he posts, go to kimura. These can go in pretty much any order.

Three Brothers: Armbar, Omoplata, Triangle. Whenever they escape one, you've almost always got the other. For example, he pulls his arm out of an armbar, go to an omoplata. He postures out of the omoplata, go to the triangle, and so on.

Rubber guard has its own submissions, sweeps and strategies that I'm not even going to bother going into here.

Here are some simple combos and setups I've come up while training:

Use collar choke to setup an armbar, he defends by stacking, counter with pendulum sweep. Too heavy to sweep, come back the other way and take the back since his arm is crossed.

Go for a pendulum sweep, bu he defends by posturing, so you pass your leg over for an armbar. Or he frees his arm and posts on the mat, giving you space to go to a triangle. He defends the triangle by keeping his arm uncrossed, go to the omoplata. He defends the omoplata, roll bellydown for the omoplata sweep. Or go to gogoplata.

Break posture with neck control and climb guard, get an under and overhook. Frame neck to create space, escape hips and hug their arm to your shoulder for reverse armbar. He frees his arm by turning it in, keep his arm crossed and take the back.

Anyway, I just thought I'd share how and why I like closed guard, since I don't really buy the idea that open guard is always better than it. Close guard has its own combos and strategies, and even though it's "one position" by name, you can use it to play many different games.

16

andre: I understand what you are saying. I agree that keeping the posture broken is very important. However, if my opponent GETS posture, my suggestion was to try to attack with something instead of breaking the posture first (because it's so hard, lol). I know it will fail, but perhaps it might open something else up because he will probably have to react somehow, to move somehow - out of that bloody annoying "base and posture" position ;) Who knows if my second attack will be switching to some move from the butterfly guard?

I still find the following thought interesting - from the butterfly guard and half guard, you can't use your legs to control his arms, at least not directly!

It's easier to control strong arms if you have help from your legs, for example if you put your shin in his bicep and grab his tricep or wrist.

17

Aesopian, thanks for a good post. I also like your posts on mmalibrary.com :) Anyway, how would YOU deal with a guy that sits back in posture with his hands on your hips in no-gi? Just out of curiousity.

18

This post is more about guard theory than it is about particular technical positions, so take it for what it is, which is just food for thought.

I find it best not to prefer or rely on one particular style of guard, but to think of the guard be it closed,open,half,quarter,spider,X guard ,butterfly,de la riva,sitting guard ,cross guard, whatever guard as all parts of the same whole each with it's own advantages and weaknesses depending on the reactions of your opponent.

Being able to transition smoothly and effectively from one guard style to the next is what I try to focus on.

I always try to start with closed guard, try my attacks from there and see where the opponents reaction to my attacks takes me. If I need to open the guard and transition to another style of guard then I do so until I am able to get my opponent to make a mistake which allows me to either submit or sweep him.

I feel the constant transitions between guard styles confuses his ability to pass and confuses him on what posture points to defend to avoid sweeps and the constant changes this forces him to make in changing postures to defend the sweep usually causes him to forget to defend something and I am able to catch him in a sub more easily.

I guess my point is that all the guard styles are just little parts of the guard as a whole and your focus should be on mastering the nuances of all of them and letting them flow and adapt for what the situation calls for. I know this is a tall order but I feel this is what everyone should strive for. I definately am not there myself but this is my goal.

19

Famigerado, good points and I agree.

20

Glad to hear you like my MMALibrary.com posts. The site's gone pretty dead lately, which is sad since I just posted the great crucifix series Eduardo de Lima did.

Anyway, like andre, I tend to sit up and double underhook to pull them down if they are posturing like this.

Or I'll hook their elbows and pull them out to bend their arm as I bring my knees to my head (keeping my guard closed) to break their posture.

I've had mixed results with underhooking their leg and turning into the kneebar. This works best if they are standing, since they can keep their weight on the knee if they are down low. But even if they are down low, at least their grips are messed up, and you can start doing an omoplata with the "wrong" leg to break their posture forward for the kneebar.

Recently, I've be really getting a kick out of doing the wristlock to armdrag from my last post. It works surprisingly well.