I was shocked at the lack of support from some of the Melbourne based clubs for the Pan Pacs.
In NSW all the major clubs compete and we have a very robust and healthy competition. Hell even our BB are starting to compete against each other.
If we are to have a true National titles the state circuits should be used as feeders to produce State teams that then compete.
BJJ needs to get more organised with official referees, widely documented rules.
We already know its the best martial art but we have a long way to go before it is the best sport.
I know I'll never make an olympics with it but hopefully the kids training now will get that opportunity.
If TKD can get a guernsey what is stopping us. Jeez Judo has been there for years.
Andrew Hayes
I think the problem isn't something recent. It's been a long running problem in Melbourne where the Academies haven't worked together. There are old issues, though they may be put aside, the behaviour still has not been broken.
Unlike Sydney where all the clubs try to work together for the sucess of BJJ.
Elvis
Clubs and more importantly individuals who do not compete because of 'affiliation' loyalties ultimately end up only hurting themselves. Regular exposure to a healthly competitive environment can only help your skill development in addition to motivate the development of long-term training habits.
Two comments on the current situation:
1. 'Closed' competitions create an atmosphere of exclusivity. A competition that comes to mind is the M-Nats: while I can understand why it feels good to compete with other M-clubs, isn't a victory a little hollow knowing that there are others who have been excluded from the competition on the basis that they train with non-M clubs?
2. 'Open' competitions that are black-banned by clubs primarily hurts those who don't attend, which is the individual players not the club coach. By way of an example: I rarely see PDB players at non-AFBJJ competitions despite the depth of competition. Again, how in the longrun can avoiding competition improve ones competitive game?
And 3rdly there seems to be #$%^ all events in BJJ and MMA's but some how they all seem to run on the same weekend or within days of each other!
First, if BJJ goes to the Olympics it will be fucked! Luckily that will never happen.
Second, the only clubs that actualy compete in every event are Machado and Ground Zero. Gracie and Extreme obvioulsy have a problem with each other and I can't actually figure out why. I know John Donehue wants no affiliation with the AFBJJ, but really it is a pretty small issue just pay the money and play, who cares!
I was (as are a few others that I spoke to) a little disappointed by the lack of showing by the Melbourne clubs, and I my opinion there is no reason why this should be the case, guys traveled here from W.A. and Sydney to compete and the Melbourne clubs couldn't travel 10 km, WTF?
I'm no huge fan of playing in tournaments but like it or not they are part of BJJ and they are (in some respects) very helpful for BJJ. Alot of people need to get over thier issues and support our embryonic art.
Dave.
"just pay the money and play"
????
why should we have to pay to join his federation? as i pointed out once before on this forum, i was a memember of the Confederation in Brazil, but he still wouldn't let me compete.
R
I agree, we need people to start getting off their arses and compete. Jason, the Machado nationals are for the machados simply so they can get together and comptete within their own group, have a great day and not have to worry about any crap. We are allowed to have our own party! John can't be pharked dealing with all the potential bullshite that can occur when it is thrown open to all comers.
As good as the NSW BJJ circuit is, you can't tell me that a whole heap of crap doesn't happen each time they run a comp. eg: the wrong comp forms being sent out delaying teams entering and making deadlines, or clubs suddenly withdrawing at the last moment.
PdB has created a comp where everyone can compete, yep he charges like an angry bull to a degree, but the opportunity is there. JD also has one, so it's not like the people can't show some guts and tell there head coach that they would like to compete at other tournaments to improve.
If a coach was really interested in his students being exposed to a wide variety of comps and games and not let petty issues and ego's get in the way, they would let their students compete in anything they wanted, period!!
If the head coaches want to act like kids and let stupid things get in the way, so be it. But it only hurts the BJJ community as a whole.
"why should we have to pay to join his federation? as i pointed out once before on this forum, i was a memember of the Confederation in Brazil, but he still wouldn't let me compete."
Because they are TWO DIFFERENT organisations. Yes they are affiliated, but still separate organisations. You have to be a member of his Federation to compete. Is that too difficult a situation to understand?
"A competition that comes to mind is the M-Nats: "
The Machado Nationals are an opportunity for Machados to get together in a competitive enviroment. It's a chance for friends and training partners to meet up again, and it's a chance to compare how skills have improved with friendly competition. The closed door competition would be a problem if it it were the only competition our guys competed in. But see my next reply.
The Machado's as mentioned earlier are pretty much the only organisation that competes in EVERY bjj/grappling event. Yes we have our closed door comp, but we also compete in everything else so the closed door comp does not limit us.
"As good as the NSW BJJ circuit is, you can't tell me that a whole heap of crap doesn't happen each time they run a comp. eg: the wrong comp forms being sent out delaying teams entering and making deadlines, or clubs suddenly withdrawing at the last moment."
You know, I do see where you're coming from. I know the situation first hand as I have to deal with it. Yes, there is crap that goes on. BUT the thing is, we as a whole work toward resolving this problem up here. We try and work together to make it better. It's better than just boycotting the events. The NSW Circuit needs to improve, but by far it's the best BJJ circuit in Australia.
I also agree that the Pan Pacs are the best opportunity for all the clubs to get together and compete. I also think that the event should be held in a different state each year. Vic no longer holds the monopoly on BJJ in Australia. I think that if the Pan Pacs wants to be a truly National/International body, it needs to look at holding events in other states.
Elvis
Why don't they charge equal fees and then they can both compete and break even sorta. Good investment in BJJ and good for the GDP.
I think it seems to be a "matter of principle".
Elvis
Hey I ain't trying to tell JW how to run his organisation, just thowing up some ideas to knock around.
"We are allowed to have our own party!"
I want to be part of the party too!
A curly one for you all: What if I was to join a M-club (i.e. pay the fees) and then compete... does anybody feel that would be unethical?
Thinking about Elvis' comment:
"The Machado's as mentioned earlier are pretty much the only organisation that competes in EVERY bjj/grappling event. Yes we have our closed door comp, but we also compete in everything else so the closed door comp does not limit us"
IMHO hosting a Closed Door Comp does limit you (i.e. the orgnisation/players): it limits the development of your opponents and in doing so doesn't stretch your skills, and limits those players of yours who do not compete in the Open comps development.
Nice idea re rotating the Pan Pacs... makes a hell of a lot of sense, but... well we all know the various BUTs.
Like most sports BJJ is plagued by the ego battles from the heros of yesteryear... it's a shame, but I don't have any answers beyond if you don't like it do something about it.
Victoria: watch this space ;-)
Hey Elvis,
my comments about the NSW BJJ circuit were by no means a criticism, but merely pointing out that JBW has told me he is not interested in dealing with potential crap like that. What I think you guys are doing is indeed fantastic and the results are showing. The effort you guys must put in is truly a credit to all.
Jason, join a machado club, train with them consistently (not just once and a while) and your in. You can then go in every tournament that exists in OZ.
The closed door comp doesn't limit us, BECAUSE we go in all the other tournaments as well!!!!!
Your statement would be correct if that was the only comp we went in, but that's not the case.
Cam
"A curly one for you all: What if I was to join a M-club (i.e. pay the fees) and then compete... does anybody feel that would be unethical?"
You'd have to represent the Machado Team when you compete in comps. Then you'd have to resolve the problem of training at another associations gym. Yeah, ethically it would be a problem.
"IMHO hosting a Closed Door Comp does limit you (i.e. the orgnisation/players): it limits the development of your opponents and in doing so doesn't stretch your skills, and limits those players of yours who do not compete in the Open comps development."
Look, I do see where you are coming from. I used to be for opening up the Machado Nationals as well. But what this comes down to is that there are some people who are not interested in competing seriously. So the Machado Nationals are a chance for Machado guys who want some friendly competition experience to compete, and it's a chance for the serious guys to hone their skills before they step out into the open comps.
Alas, regardless of what we want, do or say, this won't change as JBW likes this format and it is here to stay.
Elvis
No surprises there :-) re joining a M-club. Oh well, it's not like I have enough cash + spare time to regularly train at two clubs in any event so I'll let it go.
Elvis, I can appreciate the 'friendly' competition format, in that context the current format of the M-Nats makes a lot of sense.
Re the NSW competitions: many of the problems at the events to date (of which I've travelled to Sydney to be part of three)I'd put down to inexperience - basically as more events are run one would expect things to get better. Thumbs up for Paulo, Elvis and everyone else involved for giving it a shot.
Now I had better do some work today before I get fired.
I been to many of the competitions in Victoria and I believe the Machado Nat's is the best. The environment is so positive, the level of sportsmanship is very high (I seen one incident in 5 years) and the standard is phenomenal (eg Anthony, George, ...).
It's a great time to catch up with friends from all around Australia and NZ.
It is a privilege to compete in this competition and it is only open to Machado students. We had well over 200 competitors this year.
JBW has a visiting BB, a seminar the next day, awards presentation and an opportunity to personally address a very large gathering of his students.
We compete and/or help out in nearly every comp in Oz.
I wouldn't change it for the world.
You want in join ;-)
Oli
Just be grateful you have some good competitions over there and clubs willing to participate. In NZ we have very few people in BJJ and even fewer clubs that are willing to let there members participate. this includes people trained and graded under brazilian black belts. The only competitions that are thriving are kids tournaments.
I spoke to one karate instructor the other day and his reason for not letting his students compete in our little tournament was "we have to keep somethings secret"
Southerncross,
Why should you pay? because everyone else dose, what makes you so special? Last I looked the fees were the same for everyone, get over it.
Jason,
If you want to come to the party you will have to go home, get a collared shirt and different shoes, you'll get in if you have hot chicks with you:)
Serioulsy though, I agree with Cam, in that the Machado guys aren't limited as they compete in everything else. Another thing though is the misconception that tournamnents are the "be all and end all" for improving your Jiu Jitsu. If you are training then you are getting better, techniques are born and perfected in training, you just show them off in tournaments.
Granted, tournaments are good for people to work under a little pressure, but in real terms it is a pissing contest for the people that win so they can beat their chest and say that they kicked everyones arse, nothing more.
Dave.
Bloody Machado dress regulations will be the death of me! and that hot chick you saw me with was my wife... and she's too good for the likes of you (and arguable me for that matter)!
Fair call regarding tournaments however... I tend to forget that it ain't for everyone.
Well here goes nothing:
[chestbeatingmode] "AGGHHGAHHGHAHH" [pissmode] "Oh that feels a lot better!" [/pissmode][/chestbeatingmode]
BJJ in the olympics? Dave doesn't explain why he thinks it would be fucked... Olympics is good for boxing, wrestling and TKD, isn't it?
Ultimaltely i think it comes down to how it is handled and the strength of the sport at the grass roots level... Judo has become a massive sport thanks to the olympics and no doubt the standard of sport judo has improved dramaticly... (standard of my spelling seems to be deterioting however) Good luck however trying to find authentic Kodokan Judo as Jigoro Kano intended it to be! And now there's talk of Muay Thai being a demo sport at the Beijing olympics (2006?) however it will be the amatuer, IFMA style - head gear, chest protector, shin pads, knee and elbow pads etc. Not authentic muay thai but a watered down version for the masses... Two sides to every coin.
I think the JBW approach to comps is great. First of all, they are willing to compete in all comps, regardless of who they are run by. Therefore they are continually testing themselves against the widest variety of opponents possible and it doesn't matter if they don't always win. Learning and progressing is more important then claiming to be the best team even though you don't actually compete against all the other teams...
Secondly the Machado Nats also seem like a good idea. What better way to introduce a newbie to competition BJJ then through a comp that promotes comraderie within the style and leaves out the politcal bullshit. Perhaps also a good yardstick for measuring the skill level of the organisation and preparing for the open comps...? And if you look at the calibre of fighters being turned out by the JBW organisation (Sinosic, Perosh, etc) how can one question the teaching/comp methodolgy?
To the outsider (me) it seems so ridiculous that the two major Vic schools don't compete against each other. It seems someone from neither of these schools needs to come along and put on an event. My vote for title - Neutral Ground Jiu Jitsu Challenge.
As i'm new to this net thng, can some please fill me in on what IMO and IHMO mean..?
imo - in my opinion
imho - in my honest/humble opinion
some others you may not know
lmao - laughing my arse off
lol - laughing out loud
ttt - to the top