Congrats on BJJ BlackBelt VANNEST

i recently heard you were promoted to Black Belt by Joe Moreira. CONGRATS it's nice to have more high level BJJ guys in WV.

TTT

http://saw-jj.com/

http://www.jiujitsugear.com/forum/index.php?topic=53494.0

Joe duz not know this guy or Phil Potter who gave Dave his Black belt and his 1st and 2nd and 3rd and 4th degree and yet Phil Potter has never train in BJJ,another 10th degree master in TKD that thinks he can promote anyone to any leavel at any given time.I myself talk with Phil about this and he end up hanging up the phone on me.ASSHOLE.

"Joe duz not know this guy or Phil Potter who gave Dave his Black belt"

So, Moreira doesn't know who Vannest is? If not, what's the deal on this BB?

So, Moreira doesn't know who Vannest is? If not, what's the deal on this BB?

Ask Phil Potter,he is well knowen in the Judo world as a belt seller.

Hi, well, you guys know I'm one of Dave's students. I just talked to him over the phone about this because it seemed a bit off. He asked me to relate a few facts to clear things up.

He was not promoted by Joe Moreira, and has never met him in his life. He never claimed otherwise. He was promoted by a Joe Moreira black belt, Lonnie Phillips.

Also, his freestyle jiu-jitsu 4th degree has nothing to do with that. So Phil Porter has nothing to do with this either.

If you guys want to contact him directly, you can email him (I believe that will be available soon over at his website). Or just drop a message for him over at the forum over there so he sees it and can respond.

Did Lonnie give him his blue through brown?

Sorry, you seem like a great guy, but this reeks. I have no doubt that Dave is talented, but a BJJ black belt is a very specific thing, not a general sign that someone is good on the mat.

justin -

this SUCKS!!!

i have had discussions with BOTH you and Jonas (when he was still a white belt in BJJ Feb 2005 - he got his BB in March 2005). YOU told me YOU are a purple belt in Freestyle Jiu-jitsu as that is what Dave Vannest teaches. did you not tell me that? you also told me before that Dave had NO formal BJJ training. i thought you were a good guy, as did many on this forum i bet. it seems you fabricate just like Jonas and Dave. Dave told Butch Hiles (Royce Purple who challenged Jonas) earlier this year that he got his BB from Lonnie Phillips a LONG time ago. Dave lists his pre-historic Grappling record on your web site, yet he failed to mention ANY BJJ Rank.!? WTF!!! ok, so it's on your web site now - lol. Now, he goes to a gym in Beckley and intoduces himself as a BB under Joe Moreira, NOT Lonnie. i told you before that i thought Dave was a blue belt when i met him in '98. YOU told me has was not and that he NEVER had any BJJ training.

again, i thought you were a good guy. i know Jonas went straight from white to Black with Lonnie. Now Dave too? i guess you're next in line? well here's to you

CONGRATS to Justin Hastings on his Lonnie Phillips BJJ BB

again, i thought you were a good guy before all this crap. guilty by association Justin. Dave's got skills, but he hasnt gone through the ranks, and is NOT a BJJ BB. Jonas might be a blue belt. you can ask Butch and his people about Jonas's skills.

this stuff really SUCKS!!!

This is getting interesting!

This is just funny

nice.

"CONGRATS to Justin Hastings on his Lonnie Phillips BJJ BB"

I'm a purple belt under Dave. That's been freestyle JJ. Like the website even says, he was awarded his BJJ BB in 2005. So obviously I haven't been training with a BJJ rank for the past 7 years. If dave wants to promote me in BJJ to have an official BJJ purple, that's up to him, because he's the only person I'm accepting a rank from since he's taught me everything I know. I'm a purple myself, and no where near Dave's level of skill. We had this same discussion last time, so there's not point in getting into an internet debate over my own skill level. It'll just be pointless and be a repeat of last time. You're welcome to come up to my club and workout anytime you want. I've told you that before. I'm not a hostile person, and you'll be welcome to workout. It's only about an hour or so drive to wheeling.

As for Dave, he asked me to quote him,
" No one who has rolled with me has questioned my skill level. Obviously the person who promoted me thought my skill level was sufficient. If my grappling record is prehistoric, maybe it's because I've been doing jiu-jitsu for 15 years, before you even knew what it was." If you want to be the jiu-jitsu police, you're welcome to contact him at DVannest1969@yahoo.com. Since you're so concerned about it, he'll be more than willing to let you roll with him and make your own judgement on his skill level.

My personal opinion is that if Dave went to sign up with a BJJ org and they asked him to start at blue or purple or even brown that would be truly insulting, because his skill level is better than that. If someone has the skill, they deserve the recognition. To say otherwise is as bad as any TMA schools that get made fun of so much on here, where the belt is all the matters and not the skill level. That's just my opinion, but to me you're just getting into semantics.

(edited for grammar)

Justin,

Now you are just plain wrong. Sorry. Like I said, you seem like a great guy and I say all of this in the most respectful way possible, but you are wrong and your view is limited because the person you are arguing for is the one who taught you everything you know.

Mark Coleman, Alexander Karelin, and Mr. Fantastic (who can stretch his way out of every submission and has gone toe to toe with Dr. Doom and the Sub Mariner) are very effective at what they do. They are skilled on the ground. They may beat BJJers in competition. They may know submissions and sweeps and how to pass some guards. But they aren't BJJ black belts.

To get a BJJ black belt is simple: Learn the curriculum and move up through the ranks (rank by rank) by being promoted by someone who is a legitimate black belt that can trace his lineage back to the Gracie Family. Sorry to sound TMA, but that is what makes someone a BJJer versus a submission grappler or just a grappler in general. Maybe it isn't better or worse, but it is specific.

I'm kind of tired of this. The state of MMA and everything else has evolved past people needing to be associated with BJJ in order to be credible. Just do your own thing and call it submission grappling, freestyle grappling, combat grappling, kung fu grappling, or cheerios grappling, I don't care. But to call it BJJ when you haven't devoted yourself to learn the specific art from a reputable instructor and paid your dues IN THE ART, is crap.

"Mark Coleman, Alexander Karelin, and Mr. Fantastic (who can stretch his way out of every submission and has gone toe to toe with Dr. Doom and the Sub Mariner) are very effective at what they do. They are skilled on the ground. They may beat BJJers in competition. They may know submissions and sweeps and how to pass some guards. But they aren't BJJ black belts."

Andre,
I understand completely where you're coming from. Mark Colemand and Karelin as examples are not a good comparison to Dave though. His skill isn't attribute based at all. It's all about the technique. At one point in his career he was only a 160 lber who would take out heavyweights. What he's taught me doesn't work that way either. I'm not peticularly strong either or fast. Almost all the guys I teach jiu-jitsu to right now are stronger than me. I'll I've got over them is experience and the technique Dave has taught me.

I know it's not make a difference what I say on this discussion anyhow, because of the nature of it. How can I verbally prove someone's skill over the internet? I can't, so I'm going to stop trying. Being an official BJJ rep has never meant anything to me anyhow. It's doesn't change the way I'll be training. Jiu-jitsu is just what I love to do 5x a week. I've only responded after my first post here, because Don decided to start insulting me. I'm not going to hold any ill will over that though, because hey, he has the right to be sceptical until he comes to roll with Dave. Hopefully this will be my last post on this thread hopefully. That's really all I have to say on it.

Justin,

Thanks for the response. I think you still missed the point, though. I shouldnt have chosen the names I did because the inclination is to think that I chose them based on their attributes.

O.k., pick the weakest wrestler you can find, or anyone from Gokor's school (like Karo) who have tremendous skill on the ground, and plug their names in instead. They are highly skilled on the ground and not particularly strong, but they are not BJJ black belts.

It shouldnt be frustrating for you. You dont need to prove his skill because Im willing to concede that he's skilled. Its a given, for the sake of argument. If you want to convince me that he is a BJJ black belt, show me who he got his blue, purple, brown, and black belts from and when.

Thanks.

justin - my intention was not to insult you. i am not hostile by nature either, but when people say one thing "Im a BJJ BB of Joe Moreira", and misrepresent MY ART, i take it personally. my brother is a BB in Sambo. if i school him, i dont tell people im a BB in Sambo. i was just pointing out the facts. i'll post more later.

i dont doubt Dave's "Grappling" ability. anyone who knows him knows he has skills. i was going to also use Gokor as an example, or Tony C for that matter. they can hang with high level BJJ guys i bet, but that does not make them BJJ BBs.

again, i have to run. i'll post more later

andreh - check your Friendster

this is ridiculous. i do not care how good you might be on the ground. you cannot just get a blackbelt without getting all the other belts first. it destroys the integrity of the whole system.

Freestyle JJ, i have a question. if someone who is not a blackbelt goes up there and beats him, is his putting his email up here implying that he will concede that he is not a blackbelt and take it off?

This BS is what kills bjj for me. FRRIGGIN IDIOTS!

"It shouldnt be frustrating for you. You dont need to prove his skill because Im willing to concede that he's skilled. Its a given, for the sake of argument. If you want to convince me that he is a BJJ black belt, show me who he got his blue, purple, brown, and black belts from and when."

Ok, for the sake of arguement. Say our curriculum does practically match a BJJ club. Because, Dave's first martial arts experience was with Gracie Jiu-Jitsu when they were first coming into Columbus, along with everyone else in this area I suppose who has been training that long back in the early 90s. He just didn't stay affiliated with them. Our focus is on groundwork almost exclusively. (I actually do 2 separate days a week practice in judo so I can spend time on my takedowns solely.) Position first. We teach a basic principle: position, immobilize, then technique. We go through the full spectrum of guard movement drills, as well top position transitional drills. Triangles, armbars, bent joint locks, compression locks, chokes etc. About the only slight difference I've ever noticed is that we're slightly more liberal with leg locks than SOME bjj clubs I've heard of. That isn't even so in all bjj clubs from what I understand. We still teach passing as more important than leg locks though. So say for arguements sake that we do practice practically the same art.

If you take someone who does it long enough and developes the same skill, and then they come in and since they haven't had a promotion before, then enter them in a blue belt division or a purple belt division? Isn't someone going to start screaming sandbagger if that person starts mopping the floor in those divisions and with good technique too?

Not trying to drag him into it, but take Jonpall here on the forum for example(less of a degree though). He trained on his own for a few years and when he did get a chance to test for a belt he got his blue belt. Which is great. Say he hadn't gotten to do a belt test for 10 to 12 more years and was 100x better when he got to finally make some connections with a BJJ team. Would he still deserve to be a blue belt when he's wiping the floor with guys higher than that?

"i dont doubt Dave's "Grappling" ability. anyone who knows him knows he has skills. i was going to also use Gokor as an example, or Tony C for that matter. they can hang with high level BJJ guys i bet, but that does not make them BJJ BBs."

You can still pick out the differences in strategy though. Those are the things that actually separate them and make them not BJJ guys. You can see a difference in the strategy between a sambo player and a bjj player, it's sometimes obvious, or a wrestler who makes most of his wins on his attributes.
That's what I'm telling you guys, I don't see the differences between what I've been doing for 7 years and what I see BJJ guys doing. I've gone with submission wrestlers and judo guys and wrestlers, and just about one of everything and those aren't what I practice. I've called what I do freestyle jj for 7 years, but all that has ever meant to me was that I had no official affiliation with a bjj organization/team.

Have any of you seen the competition footage of dave's we had on the website for a while? It's all labeled on the camcorder '95 and '96 for most of them. He was wiping the floor with guys with their legit blue and purples that long ago. That's a just a narrow look at our strategy. He finishes every one with a cross armbar or a collar choke, mostly from guard. It's been 10 years and Dave is a lot better than those tapes even show. Take what you see on that highlight reel and project it over another 10 years of developement. Do you see what I'm saying? If you guys don't have that video file, I'll send you a copy over AIM or something that can handle a file that big(8.73 mb).

The end fact is that a legit black belt in BJJ promoted him to BB. Whether you guys like it or approve of it or not, he holds a BB through someone with lineage.